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French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

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Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#131
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny how you can make the same comment about physical goods. Should we ban selling second hand furniture? With laws like this you generally have to ask what's best for the consumer. I'm not sure reselling is. The current setup gives furniture salesmen a somewhat predictable revenue model and on the strength of the model they can encourage investors to put ip money to make furniture. Changing the revenue model may ch…

> Funny how you can make the same comment about physical goods. No, you can't. That's why this is such a complicated issue. The inherent value in a physical good is consumed with use. If somebody buys a couch and takes it home it becomes a used couch. Used couches are not great substitutes for new couches; they devalue with time and use and you eventually have to pay somebody just to take it off your hands. Its value…

The inherent value for a digital food also decreases over time. Top of the line graphics from ten years ago look bad in comparison to today. Story driven games get their stories spoilt over time, especially the popular ones. Compatibility with controllers and other such devices depend wildly on backwards compatibility (for example, the xbox one controller had loads of compatibility issues with games that only accepted xbox 360 controllers for a while).

I would have paid 60 euros for Skyrim back in 2011. These days, I wouldn't spend more than 10-15 bucks on it if it was new. This is reflected in the price on steam as well, with it currently being sold for 15 euros.

The mere passing of time decreases the value of the goods, just like using a game would.

I don't know what happened that people think that selling things you don't need anymore second hand is suddenly bad just because the goods are on a computer. The car industry would love a method to stop people from buying second hand cars but consumers would never accept such limitations.

Games sales aren't affected by anything past the opening quarter. A study done by the EU on piracy concluded that even piracy is barely affecting the price of games after the opening period. Reselling games will barely touch the games industry.

Adding arbitrary rules just because the game industry is unhealthy isn't a solution to the problem. If I have to give up rights so that people can make some shiny toys every now and then, I don't care about those toys anymore. I don't want to give up rights to keep game developers employed because their current ecosystem is unviable. And, in my opinion, neither should you.

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#132
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny how you can make the same comment about physical goods. Should we ban selling second hand furniture? With laws like this you generally have to ask what's best for the consumer. I'm not sure reselling is. The current setup gives furniture salesmen a somewhat predictable revenue model and on the strength of the model they can encourage investors to put ip money to make furniture. Changing the revenue model may ch…

> Funny how you can make the same comment about physical goods. No, you can't. That's why this is such a complicated issue. The inherent value in a physical good is consumed with use. If somebody buys a couch and takes it home it becomes a used couch. Used couches are not great substitutes for new couches; they devalue with time and use and you eventually have to pay somebody just to take it off your hands. Its value…

For the case of physical media that contains digital data (like a game on a DVD or music on a CD) this is a distinction without a difference. Should I not be allowed to resell my CDs if they are in pristine condition?

I think the argument being made here is: bad for companies -> companies are less incentivized to make products -> bad for consumers of those products, therefore anything bad for companies is bad for users.

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't realize that! Though in researching it, I found that the law allowing resell is somewhat linked to the original install media, i.e., you couldn't sell the license key and a backup copy. I don't see any EU cases that square this with digital distribution, but maybe this current ruling will provide guidance on that issue.

There was the famous Oracle vs UsedSoft lawsuit: https://www.theverge.com/2012/7/3/3134867/eu-court-of-justic... This basically added jurisprudence that digital downloads can be resold provided that the original is made unusable.

Most software EULA say they are non-transferable, but that court order overrules it. That restriction has become meaningless. Interesting!

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should? The whole idea of copyright is that only the author (or otherwise copyright holder) can profit from making copies. Just because you purchased a copy yourself shouldn't automatically result in a right to making another copy for someone else as long as you promise not to use yours.

That's not how copyright works on physical goods, like books, DVDs, etc... The Doctrine of First Sale is a crucial part of Copyright law. The author doesn't get to control your life because you bought one of their works. If you want to use it in some other way then they intended they don't get a say.

But you are not making another copy with physical goods. You are giving/selling it to someone else. Those things aren't analogical (for the same reason making a copy isn't "stealing" it's at most copyright violation). There is a reason for this distinction. Making physical goods costs money, making digital copies is free (basically). If we accept the premise that copyright holder can exercise control over it there is no reason why you magically should be able to make exactly one copy for someone else once you stop using yours.

The author also doesn't control your life, quite the contrary the court wants to control the life of the author by forcing them to implement ways to move the game to another person/computer/account.

I think selling a computer where the game is installed to someone else is more akin to selling a book or a car or whatever and I doubt anyone would oppose that.

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#135
post #48

With laws like this you generally have to ask what's best for the consumer. I'm not sure reselling is. The current setup gives game developers a somewhat predictable revenue model and on the strength of that model they can encourage investors to put up money to make the games. Changing the revenue model may change how investors look at the market. Maybe for better maybe for worse. Who knows, but it would be a disrupt…

I still by all my console games on physical disc, so I can sell/trade them.

Steam raised PC Gaming back up but it also created a world where we don't buy games any more, but licenses to games. I still try to buy off Humble Bundle or GoG if the same game is available in their store DRM free, even if it cost more.

I can see as it being better for artists, but it's also this weird situation where the license to the game is attached to the person. Physical media can be sold later, restored or copied if it's in danger of not being readable ..and old content is still preserved. Classic games from this era won't really be preserved the same way if any of these licenses servers from Steam/Origin/BattleNet ever go under one day.

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#136
post #9

Personally, I like the fact that Steam games can’t be resold. Why? Because that keeps the prices down since the resale value of a game does not need to be included in the price. If games could be resold then I’d have to go through the trouble of reselling them in order to recoup the difference.

If game companies could just raise prices today and make more money, why wouldn’t they, regardless of what happens in this case?

If anything, allowing resale would cause demand for new product to go down causing lower prices.

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#137

A game only has value while I'm playing it. If two people play the same game at different hours or timezones, they can buy a single license and transfer it back and forth. (This is different from e.g. server software.) A tariff on resales would cut back on that (if the ruling allows it). But the effective price of a game would still tend to approach the cost of reselling it. You would need to re-download the game eve…

The article doesn't mentions that the judgment would force Steam to facilitate game resell though.

You can be allowed to do it, but it can still be a pain in the ass to do it (giving access to your account, etc...).

Same goes for a marketplace that would use that rule to allow people to rent the games. None of theses games has to facilitate the resale and they aren't forced to sell license to the marketplace either (though they could buy license through Steam or anything else, but that would still go with the "pain in the ass" argument).

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#138
I could easily see this as setting the minimum sale price as the current new-purchase price, Valve taking a 2%-5% cut, and then putting the balance of the proceeds in the seller's Steam wallet just before throwing out an offer to use it to buy the top game on their wishlist that costs less than that amount (maybe after a 5% post-transfer incentive discount).

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#139
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But now this court have effectively destroyed my freedom to make this choice as a customer To frame the idea that you don't have ownership of something you purchase as a freedom is some truly Orwellian spin on the term. You still have all the freedoms you had before, if you don't want to sell your games don't sell them. Giving customers proper ownership rights over the goods they purchase is not freedom diminishing,…

GP currently has the ability to buy a product in a way they like (not purchasing resale rights that they don't want.) Somebody wants to take that away from them. GP is upset they're losing the freedom to do business in the way they like. You're calling their view Orwellian because French Big Brother knows what ownership rights they really want to purchase? It's not Orwellian, it's just a complicated issue of how inte…

> GP currently has the ability to buy a product in a way they like (not purchasing resale rights that they don't want.)

Why is GP's freedom more important than my freedom to buy the product in the way I like (purchasing resale rights, or even having them included by default)? On top of that, the fact that GP has the "freedom" now doesn't mean that having the freedom is an inherent good. Remember that slave owners previously had the freedom to own slaves, and now they don't. Taking away a freedom somebody once had is arguably the foundation of civil society and the state if you subscribe to the idea that humans without the state exist in a state of anarchy.

>You're calling their view Orwellian because French Big Brother knows what ownership rights they really want to purchase?

No, the Orwellian view is that there is freedom in companies being able to decide what you can do with something after you've bought it from them. The person you're replying to, in my reading, views the whole notion of such a freedom as being profoundly anti-freedom. This is the sense in which it's Orwellian - freedom is confused, at large, with its opposite. As such, the way you're using the term "freedom to do business the way they like" is itself an expression of that unfreedom, just as in 1984 the usage of the word "freedom" by the Party actually refers to its opposite. From Marcuse:

>Thus, the fact that the prevailing mode of freedom is servitude, and that the prevailing mode of equality is superimposed inequality is barred from expression by the closed definition of these concepts in terms of the powers which shape the respective universe of discourse. The result is the familiar Orwellian language ("peace is war" and "war is peace," etc.), which is by no means that of terroristic totalitarianism only. Nor is it any less Orwellian if the contradiction is not made explicit in the sentence but is enclosed in the noun.

Re: French high court rules that Steam can’t ban users from reselling digital games

#140
I really wonder how this will work with VAC bans and cheating. You can be banned from a game by various means VAC is one of them and Battleye is another popular tool. If a person gets banned from DayZ then they sell their game to buy a new copy that isn't banned does the buyer of their original game remain banned?
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