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How China Unleashed Twitter Trolls to Discredit Hong Kong’s Protesters

nytimes.com

131–140 of 150 posts

Re: How China Unleashed Twitter Trolls to Discredit Hong Kong’s Protesters

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just this past week China blocked American's from leaving their country (exit bans), even though they didn't commit any crimes. That is seriously tyrannical level activity. Can a foreigner get a bank account and buy land in China? How hard is it to get a job as an white westerner in China? What kind of jobs are prevalent for foreigners in China? Look at the videos of people getting hit by cars there and no helps. Why…

>And you think that a couple vloggers are the cause of this bad press??? No, but they did proceed the recent normal in poor Chinese reporting. I think their first viral video was on Chinese ghost cities 4 years ago? And people have been linking their hot takes ever since. You often see this in conjunction with "lol my Chinese wife / girlfriend / fried / coworker who grew up in China is really nice and smart but when…

"It's complicated" is a phrase to dodge facts. Here's some balance. The US has done a bunch of terrible things to other countries, they aren't a good and righteous nation, none are, and neither is China.

There are ghost cities in the US, to say there are none in China is ridiculous. You can do quick search and turn up many respected news sources reporting this.

One side of the argument has been heard for decades, we thought China was quaint and had an old quiet society that respected traditions.

The other side we are just now starting to hear (from respected news sources, other governments and yes vloggers), is that China has been hiding it's true nature. And that is the garbage.

Just go look up what is going on in Hong Kong right now. Or go look up how the current leader of China declared himself ruler for life. That is what despot does.

Re: How China Unleashed Twitter Trolls to Discredit Hong Kong’s Protesters

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You may not believe it, the vast majority of Chinese actually love the CCP and the system, they only just hate that a few corrupt low-level officials who are the bad apples fucking up leaders' glorious visions. Is that what they actually feel, or is that exactly the upper limit of what the State accepts as legitimate dissatisfaction with the status quo, which the vast majority of people are aware of an unwilling to…

It is extremely hard to get an honest opinion about what anybody feels, but it is important to know the context. China is an extremely large place with a history of attempts at cohesion which is 98% successful but only in the last several decades. 150 years ago there was a stalemate with a guy claiming to be Jesus' brother before the winners decided to absolve the state of religion. In that context its clear how orde…

That's very true. CCP controls the communications and spreading propaganda. Those who doesnt know how to get pass GFW are simply living inside the Matrix. There are also some who can receive information from the outside world but choose to shut their mouth as they afraid the consequence to speak the truth.

Re: How China Unleashed Twitter Trolls to Discredit Hong Kong’s Protesters

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And you think that a couple vloggers are the cause of this bad press??? No, but they did proceed the recent normal in poor Chinese reporting. I think their first viral video was on Chinese ghost cities 4 years ago? And people have been linking their hot takes ever since. You often see this in conjunction with "lol my Chinese wife / girlfriend / fried / coworker who grew up in China is really nice and smart but when…

"It's complicated" is a phrase to dodge facts. Here's some balance. The US has done a bunch of terrible things to other countries, they aren't a good and righteous nation, none are, and neither is China. There are ghost cities in the US, to say there are none in China is ridiculous. You can do quick search and turn up many respected news sources reporting this. One side of the argument has been heard for decades, we…

>phrase to dodge facts

Not so much as dodge facts as, I assume your questions are rhetorical, and it's not worth the effort to elaborate on each.

Re: Ghost Cities

I didn't claim there are none? Though if we are on the topic they are loaded propaganda characterization like "debt trap" to paint a certain image of Chinese (mis)allocations of resources which was used to support unending China inflate GDP, China collapse theories that have failed to manifest. The alternate narrative is that these are under-utilized cities that will slowly become populated as Chinese urbanization continues. Chinese urbanization targets is 50% to 80% in the next 30 years, or 400 million people and 100 million more new residential units. Building new cities ahead of time and populating them on a 15 year phase is literally part of the development strategy [1]. That's not to dismiss the wild speculation that surrounds these development, and that some will take longer than others, but many previously touted ghost cities are reaching targeted capacity. Often after transit infrastructure is finalized.

This kind of alarmist news has happened for decades. I don't know how you're drawing conclusions that reporting on China has focused on quaint Chinese interest stories, or that China somehow managed to conceal it's nature all this time. When the dominant coverage is has been over the scale of Chinese modernization and the sustainability of Chinese development model including ghost cities, previously they might have been filed under human interest. Now they're given more significance post Olympics -> global financial crisis which China percieved as failure of western systems -> China decided to be more assertive -> China 2025 / SSC makes Obama pivot to Asia -> present day trade war / great power competition with US. Non of this is new. It's just being activated opportunistically now.

As for despot / emperor / dictator Xi, this again is a profound naive social media tier hottake. Xi has to play domestic politics and is beholden to the CPC politburo standing committee. Repealing term limits required the consent of standing committee, same with his recent elevation to people's leader at BeiDaiHe this year after failing a year before. His power is not absolute. There's various analysis of his ascent and relative power in the Chinese system, but the one I subscribe to is that Xi was elected internally to shepherd China through a difficult transition (middle income trap / demographic bomb etc / reunification). The CPC is flexible enough to nominate a despot when the situation calls for.

[1] https://pic1.zhimg.com/80/5a158c5bda6b768cdebc6571663c4e84_h...

Re: How China Unleashed Twitter Trolls to Discredit Hong Kong’s Protesters

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is extremely hard to get an honest opinion about what anybody feels, but it is important to know the context. China is an extremely large place with a history of attempts at cohesion which is 98% successful but only in the last several decades. 150 years ago there was a stalemate with a guy claiming to be Jesus' brother before the winners decided to absolve the state of religion. In that context its clear how orde…

That's very true. CCP controls the communications and spreading propaganda. Those who doesnt know how to get pass GFW are simply living inside the Matrix. There are also some who can receive information from the outside world but choose to shut their mouth as they afraid the consequence to speak the truth.

Of the people that receive information from the outside - and are actually on the outside - there is only an extremely small subset bothered by it in the way you want them to be.

Think about it like if you found out that the Waco disaster was actually a much larger massacre against an ideology that wasn't really that fringe. It wouldn’t really change your mind about the viability of your country or the federal government based on the excessive response to that incident - even after you then found out about rendition sites and border camps. There is an extremely small chance you would consider it a defining moment in history that you would dedicate your own cause to escaping from or changing. Everyone of that ideology thinks you are afraid to talk about it but honestly you’re aware and just got better shit to do, whether there were consequences of caring or not, whether you rationalized how the government responded correctly or not.

Re: How China Unleashed Twitter Trolls to Discredit Hong Kong’s Protesters

#135
post #51

Anyone else a bit freaked out at how effective social influence is? What does that say about how we form opinions?

I think 95%+ of opinions are directly regurgitated from others, but we humans mistake our own novelty with the idea for the idea actually being original. Thinking about my teenage years, I'd often see a documentary and then "come up" with concepts it covered a week or two later. Similarly, I think one of the biggest issues with "bot influencers" is that the average human is not good at thinking for themselves and reg…

What do you think is the best approach to make sure one's opinion is independent without spending a massive amount of time on getting an expertise in the subject?

Re: How China Unleashed Twitter Trolls to Discredit Hong Kong’s Protesters

#136
post #135
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think 95%+ of opinions are directly regurgitated from others, but we humans mistake our own novelty with the idea for the idea actually being original. Thinking about my teenage years, I'd often see a documentary and then "come up" with concepts it covered a week or two later. Similarly, I think one of the biggest issues with "bot influencers" is that the average human is not good at thinking for themselves and reg…

What do you think is the best approach to make sure one's opinion is independent without spending a massive amount of time on getting an expertise in the subject?

You can't. Independent opinion doesn't exist - you would have to validate every datum you're presented with starting from first principles, which is impossible.

Accept that most of your opinions will be informed by the opinions of others, likely directly, and your method for judging truth will instinctively be biased more towards emotion, social status and ego-preservation than than logic and fact, because humans are social animals and that's just how we're wired.

Re: How China Unleashed Twitter Trolls to Discredit Hong Kong’s Protesters

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may not believe it, the vast majority of Chinese actually love the CCP and the system, they only just hate that a few corrupt low-level officials who are the bad apples fucking up leaders' glorious visions. These "bots" are mostly spontaneous people, they are not even government-sponsored Wumao, they genuinely love China and defend it, their reason being it may have some flaws but any other country has too and is…

> You may not believe it, the vast majority of Chinese actually love the CCP and the system, they only just hate that a few corrupt low-level officials who are the bad apples fucking up leaders' glorious visions. This has been a common theme with this "Fake News and Social Bots" stuff since the very beginning not reserved to China. On the 34C3 there was a really interesting talk [0] about the troublesome nature of cl…

I'm glad more people are noticing this. The idea of huge bot or troll farms on Twitter is, as far as I can tell, more or less completely in the heads of people with particular political views.

You can see this at the start. The guy has to give a grovelling disclaimer in his first slide that he's leftist, hates Nazis, hates racists etc. He has to say this because he's about to destroy a conspiracy theory held exclusively by these kinds of people.

I did an analysis a few years ago of a typical claim along these lines. It turned out to be what I could only describe as academic fraud:

https://blog.plan99.net/did-russian-bots-impact-brexit-ad66f...

Of course the media ran with it and never published any corrections or critical analysis. Everyone who read the relevant stories in the Times of London/New York Times was simply misled and fell further down the rabbit hole of imagining non-existent Twitter bots.

Now the same newspaper (NYT) that's published outright fraudulent stories about Twitter bots as fact in the past, is trying to convince us that China is using the same tactics. Maybe they are. But given how much wrongness is out there on this topic, I am very skeptical.

Here's an example of just one of the absurd mis-identifications:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/i-m-not-a-russian-tro...

Also remember that Twitter themselves are a big part of the problem here. As the speaker in the video observes, any time you try and research this topic you can find people whose accounts were suspended and frequently find them complaining about it on other platforms (i.e. not bots). A Twitter employee himself has openly referred to (real) Trump supporters as "bots":

Just go to a random [Trump] tweet and just look at the followers. They’ll all be like, guns, God, ‘Merica, and with the American flag and the cross. Like, who says that? Who talks like that? It’s for sure a bot

The video of that can be found on Project Veritas.

Re: How China Unleashed Twitter Trolls to Discredit Hong Kong’s Protesters

#139
post #66

It's a good time to remember that the vast majority of people never use Twitter. The media has had a fixation with the platform for as long as I can remember, which has helped it gain an unearned reputation as being relevant. It's not relevant. It's the trash heap of the internet. I can't understand why anyone would continue to spend time on it when it's become universally known that bots and trolls run the show.

I'd broaden that out. The entire MSM is now largely a low-truth information source. I can't find the exact quote now, but one of the leading media execs in the UK was just a few weeks ago openly advocating that media organisations should consider reporting the truth lower down their priorities than advancing their own agenda. Personally judging on how things have gone down in the past I don't think that have a media cleaned of inconvenient truths can end well - at all - but folk seem, depressingly, ever more intent on regurgitating what they are fed instead of questioning it, and living in a dumbed-down, disempowered fantasy world of pointless interests and meaningless pursuits. If this doesn't sound too emo.

Re: How China Unleashed Twitter Trolls to Discredit Hong Kong’s Protesters

#140
In a few years the Chinese economy will experience much slower growth rate (similar to the West) and people will get out of the this 30-year hypnotic state of fast-moving and dehumanizing economic development and quest for money (which the CCP has used to consolidate its grip) and with the growing corruption at increasingly higher levels of the government, the people will eventually demand what is theirs: The right to rule and appoint their rulers and then the CCP will be in trouble, and there won't be a blazingly fast economic growth to hide behind.
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