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Turn off DoH, Firefox

ungleich.ch

131–140 of 422 posts

Re: Turn off DoH, Firefox

#131

This is painful to read. Masses off unfounded FUD - the article deliberately buries that it's trivial to change your DoH provider if you're silly enough to believe that CF is actively logging DoH requests and selling them (CF is involved with serving vast swathes of the internet anyway - if they wanted to go down this route they have far more lucrative avenues open than selling DNS requests by IP). If instead what yo…

> This is especially true in the country the author appears to be based (Germany). Of all the governments to worry about, the ones in the EU (as well as US, CA, AU, NZ), are the ones I'd least be concerned with, relatively speaking. They're enabling this in the US, and yet even with all its problems, it's the one country that the average web surfer would have to worry least about when visiting "inappropriate" sites.…

> Of all the governments to worry about, the ones in the EU (as well as US, CA, AU, NZ), are the ones I'd least be concerned with, relatively speaking.

Completely wrong threat assesment in my opinion. You should always be concerned about your own government. It isn't only the axis of evil that imprisons people with leaks about heavy privacy invasions.

Russia and China have anything about you and you are a citizen of a western nation? Great, because that doesn't matter at all.

You know who poses the greatest threat in motorsports? It is the other driver on your team.

Re: Turn off DoH, Firefox

#132
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2. Dns should not be handled by applications. It should be handled by the operating system. I agree with #1 but why it should be managed by the OS?

It's annoying. I've already experienced this with chrome as chrome ignores my hosts file settings. Example: Say you use hosts file to block porn and other shady sites for your kid, all they have to do is use chrome.

This has nothing to do with the topic. Chrome isn't replacing the OS's DNS resolver, and that bug is just that: a bug.

A bug that I cannot reproduce. Chrome follows my HOSTS file fine on Windows 10. But even if it didn't it would still be off-topic.

Re: Turn off DoH, Firefox

#133

This is painful to read. Masses off unfounded FUD - the article deliberately buries that it's trivial to change your DoH provider if you're silly enough to believe that CF is actively logging DoH requests and selling them (CF is involved with serving vast swathes of the internet anyway - if they wanted to go down this route they have far more lucrative avenues open than selling DNS requests by IP). If instead what yo…

> DNS requests are routinely intercepted and monitored by ISPs in many countries, with the information available to the security services, who have very few restrictions on what they are allowed to do with this data. This is especially true in the country the author appears to be based (Germany).

Author is based in Switzerland.

But since you mentioned Germany - German security services have no legal authority to indiscriminately monitor internet traffic, particularly not inside the country. They got into trouble with parliament the last time they got caught doing it.

For ISPs, there's no business value in intercepting or logging customer traffic. They're not allowed to use such data themselves, like for advertising purposes. At "large ISP" scale (tens to hundreds of gigabits), equipment that can intercept DNS queries at line rate is very expensive and adds a lot of infrastructure complexity. ISPs operate on thin margins and have zero incentive to deploy such equipment or otherwise mess with traffic.

They're legally mandated to store some metadata like IP address assignments and flow/CGNAT data for a limited period of time and aren't terribly happy about it, at the very least because it's expensive to collect and store it with no benefit. Deutsche Telekom has recently sued the government about it and won[1]. The so-called "Vorratsdatenspeicherung" is a recurrent topic in German politics with conservative governments introducing it, and then having to scrap it when it gets challenged in court by civil rights groups and/or companies[2].

In either case, DNS request data is NOT metadata and would never be inspected and stored unless there's a specific warrant.

Deutsche Telekom once redirected NXDOMAIN responses to an OpenDNS-like landing page with suggestions ("Navigationshilfe") and had to stop doing it when people complained to authorities[3].

Exporting and analyzing sampled packet headers or flows is pretty cheap and a standard feature with carrier-grade routing equipment (NetFlow/IPFIX and/or sFlow). IP assignments are basic accounting data that every ISP has.

Inspecting packet contents is very different and requires plenty of expensive extra equipment and/or complicated network engineering to redirect traffic to a centralized analyzer, which increases latency. It's only done if necessary, like temporary rerouting for ingress DDoS mitigation.

(source: worked in the industry)

> Masses off unfounded FUD - the article deliberately buries that it's trivial to change your DoH provider if you're silly enough to believe that CF is actively logging DoH requests and selling them (CF is involved with serving vast swathes of the internet anyway - if they wanted to go down this route they have far more lucrative avenues open than selling DNS requests by IP).

Personally, I do trust CloudFlare and understand Mozilla's choice, but I do agree with the centralization concerns. It's a difficult set of tradeoffs, and characterizing the author's concerns as "unfounded FUD" is not fair.

[1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20180511081552/http://www.vg-koe...

[2]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorratsdatenspeicherung

[3]: https://www.golem.de/news/t-online-navigationshilfe-telekom-...

Re: Turn off DoH, Firefox

#134

It's very disturbing to see the overreach that Mozilla has resorted to and the "privacy" argument (it was "security" before that...) being used to justify essentially ignoring system configuration. My ISP has more accountability than a company in another country. The correct way would be to standardise DoH and DoT and add support into it into automatic address configurations and operating systems. Exactly. If Mozilla…

> The correct way would be to standardise DoH and DoT and add support into it into automatic address configurations and operating systems. This is beside the point. Mozilla make a browser. They don't make the address resolution code for the underlying operating system. Operating system vendors are of course going to start to support DNS-over-https. You can disable dns-over-https if you don't want it enabled. Just go…

> You can disable dns-over-https if you don't want it enabled.

It was also possible to disable Ubuntu from sending your desktop searches to online retailers:

* https://www.pcworld.com/article/2889895/how-to-stop-ubuntu-f...

Just because something can be disabled does not necessarily mean it should be enabled by default in the first place.

Re: Turn off DoH, Firefox

#135
It's worth noting that CloudFlare has already proven itself to not be a neutral party - they have proven willing to take sites offline for both legal and social pressure reasons.

This will greatly impact the internet's ability to route around censorship as if it were damage.

Re: Turn off DoH, Firefox

#136
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you too have ignored "it's trivial to change your DoH provider"

It's actually not, or am I somehow missing that this is a feature that Mozilla has announced as part of this move? Users who are not technical powerusers will not understand the real security implications of "Enable DNS over HTTPS", and right now I can't find a setting to change the provider anywhere in the settings dialogue, and about:config and enterprise policies are not something that regular users mess with.

It's in Options/Preferences > Network Settings > Settings, scroll to the bottom and select Custom from the Use Provider dropdown. I added AdGuard's DNS over HTTPS address. https://dns.adguard.com/dns-query

Re: Turn off DoH, Firefox

#137

> The correct way would be to standardise DoH and DoT and add support into it into automatic address configurations and operating systems. Not in applications! You're right. But so are Mozilla. Here we are 30 years into the web, and we're still using plain old DNS. DNS over TLS should have caught on, but it didn't. Apple and Microsoft had years to ensure it's implemented as standard, but they didn't. The points this…

> DNS over TLS should have caught on, but it didn't.

So enable DoT instead.

Re: Turn off DoH, Firefox

#138
post #23

This misses the forest for the trees. In the UK ISPs are already legally mandated to log your web requests and provide them to the government. Those who live under free regimes should not deny those of us who live under oppressive governments the right to privacy of our communications. The fact that cloudflare is a US entity and thus not subject to UK law is the whole point.

> The fact that cloudflare is a US entity and thus not subject to UK law is the whole point. As a fellow citizen of a Five Eyes country, I assume that if any of those 5 have info about me that one of the other four wants it won't even be a question of paperwork for it to be shared.

The previous UK law, RIPA, was abused for investigating minor crimes such as fraudulently obtaining disabled parking badges. It's not just about national governments but local municipal authorities too. Yes I would prefer another jurisdiction but it's way better than the status quo whereby the browsing history is just handed over.

Re: Turn off DoH, Firefox

#139
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't oversimplify the issue. > it's trivial to change your DoH provider Cloudfare is the default. Cloudfare is the only provider listed. Cloudfare will be On by default, so it will be that for 99.999% of Firefox users. That ain't right no matter how well intended it is.

The other viable doh provider is google. Other’s timeout is simply not worth the request, in my experience. How does one choose from these two?

No, the other viable option is not enabling DoH by default.

Re: Turn off DoH, Firefox

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the article deliberately buries that it's trivial to change your DoH provider While true for you or me, the vast majority of people will have this enabled by default - probably not even realising it's on

And? Those same people are likely using their ISP or Google for DNS right now. How is this worse?

It's significantly better actually - gets around DNS blocking put in place by malicious ISPs and governments.
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