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Electric motor design claims remarkable improvements

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Re: Electric motor design claims remarkable improvements

#131

Post by corodra »

hwillis wrote: post #73
elif wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots misleading in your comment but: -they have built prototypes -they know it will be cheaper because they eliminated the need for rare earth minerals

-Nothing in the article or video says they have actually built prototypes. -They say it can be built without rare earth elements, but say nothing about how that affects performance. Everything else is for the magnet version and they use more magnets than is normal. They do apparently have prototypes, but I'm still skeptical: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqIKZGx-06Y

It's not a real demo though, in my opinion. If it was already in a car or used to power a lathe or something tangible, that to me is a prototype. Even a toy car is fine by me. In the video we can guess it's a prototype of a functioning motor. I guess. But let's be honest, there are prototypes for perpetual machines.

A prototype has to be real world functional. Doesn't have to be perfect or clean looking, sleek, etc. Just proves it can do a real world function. If it can't do anything useless yet, it's just a lab experiment or wishful thinking.

Re: Electric motor design claims remarkable improvements

#132

Post by blattimwind »

hwillis wrote: post #59
blattimwind wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have many gears for better efficiency with ICE, because every ICE has very narrow areas of RPM×torque that give you acceptable efficiency (typically those with high mean effective pressure). You could totally get away with three gears and still get to 150 km/h, it's just that it will be a lot less efficient. Electric motors don't have this particular problem, and they don't need a start gear that is a lot shorter…

> every ICE has very narrow areas of RPM×torque that give you acceptable efficiency (typically those with high mean effective pressure). You could totally get away with three gears and still get to 150 km/h, it's just that it will be a lot less efficient. It isn't that narrow[2]. Engines with fewer gears aren't particularly less efficient, they're just MUCH slower. Look at a map of gears[2]: the top gears are in the…

You could get around fine with the first three gears, it's just that it would be a lot less efficient.

You could get around fine with 2, 4, 6, it's just that it would have very slow and less efficient acceleration (accelerating for longer at low RPM and very high torque is overall less efficient than accelerating for a shorter period of time at a higher RPM, given identical start and end speeds).

And that's exactly the point I made. You need many gears for an ICE because being able to reach a given speed in a given gear says very little on how efficient that is, therefore you need different gears for accelerating versus holding a given speed to get acceptable efficiency.

Re: Electric motor design claims remarkable improvements

#133

Post by MasterYoda »

londons_explore wrote: post #118
mikeash wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla claims that their drive unit (which includes the motor, inverter, and gearbox) efficiency on their latest models is 93%.

Average or peak? Making something that performs well at freeway speeds, yet also is efficient when manuvering round a parking lot is hard. Most companies just hope you don't care about only getting 5% efficiency round the parking lot, because that isn't a large fraction of your energy budget, even when it's so inefficient.

It must be peak. You could see how an electric motor efficiency map looks like here:

https://x-engineer.org/automotive-engineering/vehicle/electr...

Re: Electric motor design claims remarkable improvements

#134

Post by moogly »

mikeash wrote: post #116
moogly wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that the Model 3 motors? I've heard that the Model S motors had a surprisingly high failure rate, many owners of the earlier models having had 5+ drive unit replacements. I'm guessing the Model 3 drive units are more reliable?

The early Model S motors had problems like that. They got a lot better over the years. The Model 3's is great, and the Model S/X front motors are now the same as the Model 3's, while the rear motors are something else that's still a lot better.

Thanks for clearing it up!

Re: Electric motor design claims remarkable improvements

#135

Post by somesortofsystm »

corodra wrote: post #53

Don't get me wrong, I saw the title and was excited. I want this to be real. I want to believe. But way too many keyword drops. Disruptive is what red flagged me the most. Way too many promises. Only lab results and "experts" commenting that it should work in theory. But no prototype? Even though it's a different motor they don't "believe" it's going to cost more to make than traditional motors? Only 3d renders? I th…

I have recently converted to 100% electric for my automated transportation.

It is delightful in every way.

Its not difficult to view ICE automobiles with much disdain.

Go Electric or GTFO.

Re: Electric motor design claims remarkable improvements

#136

Post by hwillis »

blattimwind wrote: post #132
hwillis wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> every ICE has very narrow areas of RPM×torque that give you acceptable efficiency (typically those with high mean effective pressure). You could totally get away with three gears and still get to 150 km/h, it's just that it will be a lot less efficient. It isn't that narrow[2]. Engines with fewer gears aren't particularly less efficient, they're just MUCH slower. Look at a map of gears[2]: the top gears are in the…

You could get around fine with the first three gears, it's just that it would be a lot less efficient. You could get around fine with 2, 4, 6, it's just that it would have very slow and less efficient acceleration (accelerating for longer at low RPM and very high torque is overall less efficient than accelerating for a shorter period of time at a higher RPM, given identical start and end speeds). And that's exactly t…

> (accelerating for longer at low RPM and very high torque is overall less efficient than accelerating for a shorter period of time at a higher RPM, given identical start and end speeds).

No, that's the whole point of short shifting.

Re: Electric motor design claims remarkable improvements

#137

Post by corodra »

somesortofsystm wrote: post #135
corodra wrote: post #53

Don't get me wrong, I saw the title and was excited. I want this to be real. I want to believe. But way too many keyword drops. Disruptive is what red flagged me the most. Way too many promises. Only lab results and "experts" commenting that it should work in theory. But no prototype? Even though it's a different motor they don't "believe" it's going to cost more to make than traditional motors? Only 3d renders? I th…

I have recently converted to 100% electric for my automated transportation. It is delightful in every way. Its not difficult to view ICE automobiles with much disdain. Go Electric or GTFO.

That's an amazingly weird response.

Did I say I was against electric cars? I even prefaced that I want this to be real. The problem is, I smell a scam in what they're offering.

You, however, have placed your identity with electric cars to give yourself value. Because you lack personal value. A type of identity politics, if you will. How about gtfo your soapbox and realize that you just told someone who is interested in an electric car future as anti ev.

Re: Electric motor design claims remarkable improvements

#138

Post by somesortofsystm »

corodra wrote: post #137
somesortofsystm wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have recently converted to 100% electric for my automated transportation. It is delightful in every way. Its not difficult to view ICE automobiles with much disdain. Go Electric or GTFO.

That's an amazingly weird response. Did I say I was against electric cars? I even prefaced that I want this to be real. The problem is, I smell a scam in what they're offering. You, however, have placed your identity with electric cars to give yourself value. Because you lack personal value. A type of identity politics, if you will. How about gtfo your soapbox and realize that you just told someone who is interested…

I'm not reacting to you or attempting to dis-engage your view point .. I'm just saying, when electric is done properly and you use it as a daily, it really, really rocks. This may, or may not .. be an outlier to your point of view.

But truly, done properly, the end of ICE seems quite plausible.

Re: Electric motor design claims remarkable improvements

#139

Post by JetSpiegel »

corodra wrote: post #130
JetSpiegel wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But no prototype? See examples of this done right: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbinia#Demonstration - Frank Zapata's "thing" on Bastille Day and the Channel crossing

Hmmm Are you suggesting that they might try doing a showy reveal? Meh I'm okay with that. Maybe. But the amount of current publicity makes it feel like Theranos. That's why I have massive red flags being thrown up.

> Hmmm Are you suggesting that they might try doing a showy reveal?

If they don't, Theranos is the correct comparison. Put up or shut up.

Re: Electric motor design claims remarkable improvements

#140

Post by anticensor »

londons_explore wrote: post #122
bob1029 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure why we are focused on the electric car angle. Assuming this motor design is legitimate and practical, I feel the implications for commercial/industrial prime movers and power generation are far more substantial. Hypothetically, if we were to replace all existing HVAC compressor and blower motors with this technology, where would that leave us in terms of power consumption reduction? How much wider do th…

HVAC systems are far from theoretical peak efficiency. For example, notice how they all have a 'capilary tube' to restrict the flow of liquid coolant between the hot and cold sides of the system? That's like using your brake to go slowly round town rather than letting off he gas... A small turbine rather than that capillary tube would instantly increase system efficiency...

It would be crazy loud.
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