Terminating Service for 8Chan • Hacker News Board

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#131

Post by tedivm » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 2:34 AM UTC

Lazare wrote: post #82

losvedir wrote: post #72

Does this start to open CloudFlare up to legal issues for all the sites they host? I was under the impression they were more of an infrastructure/utility type service, and weren't liable for what took place, the same way gun manufacturers aren't liable for shootings or gas stations for car crashes. But if now they're manually deciding who goes on their network and who doesn't, it seems like they're more responsible f…

They've kicked people off their service before for content based reasons (eg, Daily Stormer), so this changes nothing. In any case: > I thought there was some sort of legal distinction if they were totally agnostic to what travels over their wires. Is that not the case? Not as far as I'm aware, no. The closest thing I can think of is if they were discriminating based on people's membership in a protected class, eg, i…

They've also removed sex worker websites (including a forum that was just sex workers talking to each other), but for some reason no one complains about it.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#132

Post by tyre » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 2:34 AM UTC

Lazare wrote: post #15

On the one hand, I like the idea of a free, open, and distributed internet, where no one company or government has the power to control what is distributed or discussed. As the great John Gilmore said, more aspirationally than accurately even then: "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." On the other hand, we don't live in that world, and I don't know how well it would work in practice if we d…

This feels like a misunderstanding of the word freedom. Freedom in speech means that I can say what I want.

It does _not_ mean that a hosting company has to host it or that a CDN has to optimize it or that a search company has to rank it or that an ad-network has to monetize it. Each of those players is free to do what they think is best with their time, resources, etc.; which often includes thinking of what "the public" will think of them doing (or not doing) a thing.

Freedom does not mean that I have the "right" to be heard or the "right" to be amplified—either as much as the next person or at all.

The net, as in a network of computers, is quite close to free. Being a part of a society is not. Ted Kaczynski was not arrested for writing manifestos beyond the pale of normative capitalism from a self-built cabin in Montana. He was arrested for sending bombs. The moment one person freely decides to harmfully affect others, those others can do something about it.

It seems much of the hand-wringing about freedom—when we talk about the internet and corporations—is that extremist speech does not have access to the same megaphone, the same means of monetization (and therefore survival). And that…well that's what living in a society is all about.

Are there bad parts about tech as we see it today? Absolutely! But it hardly seems like the problem is "not enough shit is allowed on the internet." I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#133

Post by tedivm » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 2:35 AM UTC

quietthrow wrote: post #122

How come Twitter is not is trouble for enabling (or being A loudspeaker for) people that riles up other people, fuels their fire and so on. Trying to understand this from a ethics and philosophical perspective. Appreciate your comments.

People are constantly calling out Twitter and Jack Dorsey for the horrible aspects of the platform.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#134

Post by roywiggins » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 2:35 AM UTC

losvedir wrote: post #72

Does this start to open CloudFlare up to legal issues for all the sites they host? I was under the impression they were more of an infrastructure/utility type service, and weren't liable for what took place, the same way gun manufacturers aren't liable for shootings or gas stations for car crashes. But if now they're manually deciding who goes on their network and who doesn't, it seems like they're more responsible f…

You may be thinking of the "CDA 230" nonsense that will not die, where people claim that companies can't moderate their customers because they'd be liable for what they post.

The opposite is true. CDA 230 makes it clear that companies can moderate their content without becoming responsible for it.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190507/16484342160/one-t...

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#135

Post by mikeash » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 2:35 AM UTC

colejohnson66 wrote: post #100

CloudFlare is not a notice board. They are practically a utility. PG&E aren’t a government, and they can’t cut off your electricity because you’re an extremist. What about ISPs? Should Cox, Comcast, Frontier, etc be liable for what flows through their pipes? Media companies say yes, but what do you do when your ISP says “bye” because you visit 4chan? Go to another ISP? In most areas of the US, you can’t

A utility is typically a natural monopoly providing some sort of essential service. Cloudflare is neither.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#136

Post by bouncycastle » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 2:36 AM UTC

It's like the paper mill refusing to sell paper!

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#137

Post by robbrown451 » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 2:36 AM UTC

colejohnson66 wrote: post #100

CloudFlare is not a notice board. They are practically a utility. PG&E aren’t a government, and they can’t cut off your electricity because you’re an extremist. What about ISPs? Should Cox, Comcast, Frontier, etc be liable for what flows through their pipes? Media companies say yes, but what do you do when your ISP says “bye” because you visit 4chan? Go to another ISP? In most areas of the US, you can’t

And all that is addressed in the article. Specifically the paragraph that starts with "We do not take this decision lightly"

The point is that what 8chan is doing is egregious enough for them to step in and cease doing business with them. This isn't a slippery slope kind of thing.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#138

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 2:36 AM UTC

zorpner wrote: post #87

ng12 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you'd find a great many talented engineers don't share the same politics you do, and an even greater number who are far too apolitical for it to factor into their job search.

I think more engineers are realizing that if you've been working for Uber, Facebook, Twitter, and maybe now (or depending on how they act, maybe not) Cloudflare it severely curtails your future opportunities, both as an employee and socially.

[deleted]

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#139

Post by FemmeAndroid » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 2:36 AM UTC

quietthrow wrote: post #122

How come Twitter is not is trouble for enabling (or being A loudspeaker for) people that riles up other people, fuels their fire and so on. Trying to understand this from a ethics and philosophical perspective. Appreciate your comments.

I think they are and have been for quite some time. It seems to come up a lot. They've made some Terms of Service changes, and banned some people. I saw an article just today or yesterday criticizing them for their decision to handle right wing extremists differently from other terrorist groups.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#140

Post by ipython » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 2:36 AM UTC

selectodude wrote: post #33

wbl wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cloudflare wasn't hosting them. NT technologies was, and still is.

Yeah but now they can be DDoS’d.

Isn’t the DDoS a form of free speech though? At the risk of being uber pedantic, on the internet, speech is reduced to packet delivery from source to destination.

Therefore, one could make an argument that DDoS protection is in itself stifling free speech?