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Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

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Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#131
post #84
post #4

Absurdity of this video aside, but I just wish there was room in today's political environment to discuss pros and cons to unions and non-unions. There are some pretty good examples of unions being corrupt, there are examples where unions work. There are examples where like Amazon says, having a direct relationship with your employer is the best. Nuance is gone which is the biggest loss.

So little is said about unions today. There was a time when newspapers had a "union beat", and you'd read about who was elected head of the UAW local and how the Steelworkers negotiations were going. It's been a long time since WCFL radio, "The Voice of Labor in Chicago". Few people know how unions work any more. They vary as much as companies do. Some are top down, some are bottom up. Some run their own insurance an…

I actually worked as a production electrician & lighting designer for a couple years, and I can say from my experience that IATSE is a cancer on the industry. I wouldn't join or support a union for computer technologists.

My main concern for the tech industry is that a union is fundamentally exclusionary. It's survival depends on preventing competition- any other activity it undertakes is only to serve that goal, or to justify it.

Unions prevent competition by demanding exclusivity in a company's labor supply, they prevent competition from new entrants by being outright hostile to young tradespeople (in most trade unions, it's basically impossible to join without sponsorship form an existing member), and they prevent competition among members by fixing wages, suppressing the earning potential of the most valuable employees.

Once a union has succeeded in restraining trade, it can extract monopoly rents from the flow of labor. At best, this looks like an ever-growing university-style administration that exists to justify its own existence. Unions can never exist to create net value, only to capture it, and that by necessity means that value is destroyed by their existence. They're antithetical to the principles of fairness, openness and inclusiveness that we claim to value.

Moreover, why would we even want a union, on an individual level? We (American citizens with a BSCS or similar) each already hold a golden ticket directly to the gentry class. We are, by pure luck of nationality, already privileged beneficiaries of the American coastal tech boom cities, of American currency and political dominance of the past seven decades, and of our restrictive immigration policies that artificially inflate wages for computer professionals across the country above their global equilibrium price. A CS graduate today can reasonably expect to be a millionaire by midlife, if they choose to save accordingly.

And if you don't like having to work late sometimes, you have the option to take a job that doesn't require it. If you don't want to live the Senior SRE lifestyle, you don't have to.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#132
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they were implemented as a result of labor-saving improvements in technology. Activists always want to take credit, but it's the engineers and scientists who actually did the thing that changed the pattern that had lasted for 10,000 years. Unions are just one particular way of structuring one side of a human conflict that is as old as civilization and as inherent as gravity.

And not locking workers inside factories? Was that implemented as a result of labor-saving improvements in technology? You should look up the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire in New York, 1911, which it could be argued is what kicked off the modern unionization effort. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fi...

Nothing you said argues against me point at all. You're shouting pre-written talking points which are complete non sequiturs. Please engage in the actual discussion.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And not locking workers inside factories? Was that implemented as a result of labor-saving improvements in technology? You should look up the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire in New York, 1911, which it could be argued is what kicked off the modern unionization effort. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fi...

Nothing you said argues against me point at all. You're shouting pre-written talking points which are complete non sequiturs. Please engage in the actual discussion.

I'm not shouting anything, and my "talking points" aren't pre-written. I'm sharing with you examples where organized labor lead to clear improvements in working conditions. The world before organized labor was truly awful and pretending otherwise isn't going to help advance your cause. You get to look backwards from the world of "weekends" and "unlocked doors" and assume they were always there, but the fact is they weren't, and organized labor is why. I'm not saying I support all the positions espoused by unions unequivocally however I do respect the role they play in pushing back against capital. In the end you've got organized labor on one side, capital on the other, and when the dust settles, a happy middle ground.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#134
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is not all jobs need pay a living wage. Not everyone works to live. Some people work for extra income and their spouse works for a living. Others work to save for splurge purposes while being supported by parents. Others work for socialization after retirement. Forcing companies to pay living wages for every job means they are more reticent to create jobs which could help take families out of poverty or kee…

Even Bernie came against this reality: his workers demanded $15/hr, you know in line with his stated policy platform. So, he did concede the raise but cut back on their hours. Now, I’m somewhere in the middle. I think shipping jobs overseas has had a catastrophic impact on wages and jobs (unions can’t protect against this in any meaningful way). Also unions will milk a company dry regardless of consequences. But they…

> I think shipping jobs overseas has had a catastrophic impact on wages and jobs

On the flip side this is also what has contributed so much to global progress in terms of increased wages globally, increased standard of living, life expectancy, literacy levels, and every other measurable positive progress indicator. I'm conflicted as well.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminder to everyone that a downvote is not an "I disagree" button. This is a perfectly legitimate opinion to have; stop mobbing people for having a controversial opinion (or at least, mob them with replies and arguments)

On HK the downvote button is in fact an "I disagree" button (or more specifically that is one valid use of it). See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16131314 Now if it is reasonable that a designed in "disagree" button is also used for automatic moderation (greying/hiding/easier flagging/etc) I'll leave up to the opinions of the reader. Multiple sites have implemented some form of upvote/downvote. That within it…

I stand corrected then. Not a great move from me to correct others on what the downvote button is for without even knowing myself...

Of course, when asking whether or not I think a downvote should be a disagree button, my answer is a resounding "NO!".

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> examples of unions being corrupt This is largely a legacy of the police Red squads funded by the capitalists all over the USA starting in the 1930's. To get the radicals and other effective organizers and voices of the working classes out of the unions, local politicians and the police looked the other way as organized crime gained influence over many unions, thus simultaneously corrupting local governments, law en…

Do you have some citations for this claim? I would be VERY interested in a reading list of any kind, as I have lived near Chicago, which has an interesting history with both police officers and unions.

The wikipedia article on Red Squads has many references about this ugly fact. Where I live, in Portland, the Red Squad was founded in reaction to the Depression-Era victory of labor, aided by loyal American leftists, in the West Coast dock strike. It was a part of the police department located in a separate headquarters, funded in part by private contributions, and its existence was not even admitted by the mayor for about 60 years. The Red Squads found organized crime a natural and profitable ally in wealth's struggle to limit workers' power. In the 1950's, the United States Senate Select Committee on Improper Activities in Labor and Management found organized crime working closely and routinely with local authorities in Portland and well on its way to taking over the state attorney general's office. This is where Bobby Kennedy's battle against corrupt labor unions began and gave them so much national attention, when organized crime showed that it had learned that it could corrupt Republican politicians as proficiently as it had corrupted Democratic politicians.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#137
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're not and don't want to be a member of a union it's unimportant trivia really.

Let them eat cake?

Unclear to me how that applies; it's more like: 'I do not eat cake, therefore I do not care for whether the canteen serves cake.'

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing you said argues against me point at all. You're shouting pre-written talking points which are complete non sequiturs. Please engage in the actual discussion.

I'm not shouting anything, and my "talking points" aren't pre-written. I'm sharing with you examples where organized labor lead to clear improvements in working conditions. The world before organized labor was truly awful and pretending otherwise isn't going to help advance your cause. You get to look backwards from the world of "weekends" and "unlocked doors" and assume they were always there, but the fact is they w…

I'm saying the root cause is not organized labor. It is technology.

For thousands of years those bad conditions reigned. For thousands of years, 'organized labor' changed nothing. Then technology changed, and suddenly 'organized labor' became able to offer all these wonderful things. Does it sounds like 'organized labor' can take credit for all that? That they just happened to succeed in the decades after industrial technology took off?

The timeline clearly indicates technology, which increased productivity across the board, as the root cause.

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