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Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

nytimes.com

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Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#131

Post by diN0bot »

wry_discontent wrote: post #121
malvosenior wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone else made this point elsewhere in the thread but I think it's a good one: As engineers, we have the opportunity to move into management and become entrepreneurs at a rate much greater than traditional industries. I've moved between high level IC and senior management a lot in my career. I've also started my own company. I don't think that profile is unusual for senior people in our industry. As such I'm likel…

> As engineers, we have the opportunity to move into management and become entrepreneurs at a rate much greater than traditional industries. I've observed this to be true myself, but don't really have a good understanding of _why_ that might be. Do you have any insights?

My hypothesis is that this is a function of white collar office work, where one often works closely with management/leadership/mentors, and can build relationships, knowledge and skills that increase one's opportunities the further one progresses in their career, not only in terms of entering management, but also starting a small business or startup.

Unions historically stem from segregation between labor and bosses along multiple dimensions such as skills, day-to-day experience and class.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#132

Post by malvosenior »

Spooky23 wrote: post #123
malvosenior wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't that the democratic party is doing what's best for the democratic party. The problem is that The New York Times is doing what's best for the democratic party. They claim to be journalism but more and more, they are clearly biased political activism (as is the case with this story).

Who would you suggest that they talk to? Journalists get stories, they do that by talking to people and getting information. The New York Times has a pretty obvious mainstream approach. Very few credible people in that community have anything to say about Sanders. I didn’t notice lots of biased political activism when they were reporting on the prosecution of NY legislators and a governor. When did the switch flip?

> Very few credible people in that community have anything to say about Sanders.

He's consistently polled in the top three for the democratic primary. He's also consistently ahead of Warren who the NYT often promotes. The New York Times is trying to manufacture credibility by selectively covering candidates.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#133

Post by chongli »

blub wrote: post #118
chongli wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and professional athletes don't get promoted to management at all. Some do become managers or other executives but that requires them to retire as a player and then negotiate an entirely separate contract for the management job.

"professional athletes don't get promoted to management at all" Neither do most employees either, what does that have to do with anything? We can't organize because there's a 5% chance that we're promoted to management?

We can't organize because the people with good leadership qualities and other important organizing skills tend to get promoted to management. It's very difficult for people to spontaneously organize without a leader.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#134

Post by docker_up »

moate wrote: post #125
docker_up wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe people are different and there needs to be differentiation between those that are more skilled than those that are less skilled. I support that more skilled people getting paid more than those that are less skilled. I think it's fundamentally fair. In Silicon Valley, most tech jobs are not nooses around anyone's neck. And that's a great environment to live in that would have been ruined by unions. In fact,…

>>I think it's fundamentally fair. That's the crux of the disagreement here. You assume that something fair is happening, and others don't. A meritocracy sounds great, but I've yet to see one actually implemented at any scale. Or rather, the skills that get rewarded don't feel like the skills that are actually important to the job (networking and personal skills often times up your earning ability more than your codi…

There isn't a true meritocracy but it's "good enough" in Silicon Valley. Nothing will be perfect but what we have right now is better than any union. Unions will select for those workers with more seniority which is objectively worse than selecting for those with more skill.

>>Sure you would, because you believe that you'd be able to find another job.

No, I don't. I honestly believe that if I can't keep up I don't deserve a job. Period, end of story.

>> Some of us think the system is broken and benefits the few at the expense of the many, and that doesn't seem "fair" to us.

I don't see this in Silicon Valley at all. I think underperforming tech workers deserve to not reap the same benefits as the performing engineers. The bar keeps rising every year, I know this because I've been here 25 years, but it's fairly applied, or at least as fair as can possibly be applied.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#135

Post by lonelappde »

ttcbj wrote: post #115
vcarl wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vocational training absolutely could be done in tech, web/app development is much closer to carpentry than it is to computer science in my view. Unions are definitely complex, it's not a silver bullet to solve issues in the workplace. But at its core it's a group of people negotiating as a unit: the rest is just the natural evolution of a group where some power has been attained. More members means more organization…

True, but one difference is that the market for carpentry talent is local. So, a company that is supporting a union in city X has a reasonable expectation of benefiting from its training. With remote work, computer science is much more global, so someone could easily be trained by a union and then go work for a company that doesn't support the union. Interestingly, this is one of my Dad's main complaints about unions…

Seems that a fix for that would be to attach a loan/bond to the training that gets repaid by cash or by credits for working at a member employer.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#136

Post by lonelappde »

wry_discontent wrote: post #121
malvosenior wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone else made this point elsewhere in the thread but I think it's a good one: As engineers, we have the opportunity to move into management and become entrepreneurs at a rate much greater than traditional industries. I've moved between high level IC and senior management a lot in my career. I've also started my own company. I don't think that profile is unusual for senior people in our industry. As such I'm likel…

> As engineers, we have the opportunity to move into management and become entrepreneurs at a rate much greater than traditional industries. I've observed this to be true myself, but don't really have a good understanding of _why_ that might be. Do you have any insights?

Because it's a professional job despite not needing a formal degree, a and professionals can start their own own businesses.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#137

Post by braindouche »

ivl wrote: post #69
lallysingh wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do they leave? Are those reasons addressable by a union?

Because after 2-3 years you can move for (on the very low end) a $10-20 grand pay increase without much pain at all. A raise you'd be unlikely to get at your original job. I am unsure of how a union could address that problem. It's a sellers market for software developers.

What I'm hearing you say is "Employers are not providing raises commensurate with employee experience and value, leading to churn and a lack of mutual investment".

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#138

Post by lonelappde »

duxup wrote: post #16
LarryDarrell wrote: post #9

I used to be all around anti-union. Now that I'm older I regret that position. There are bad unions and there are good unions. Sometimes they can be corrupt, but they never really exceed the corruptness of the corporate powers they negotiate with. It's an imperfect solution, but it's the only one that seems to work. The idea that we are all lone super stars that need to negotiate for ourselves is not only selfish, bu…

> but they never really exceed the corruptness of the corporate powers they negotiate with I'm not convinced that is the case, nor is it an either or (union or corporate powers). Your protection by the union depends on what the union negotiates... beyond that their ability to effect change pretty much stops there. Then you are again at the mercy of your employer. I've had first had experience with "oh yeah they can d…

What is the logic that can mak someone pro-business and not pro-union? Why is it good for management and capital to organize against workers?

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#139

Post by rexpop »

docker_up wrote: post #102
rexpop wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I believe people are different and there needs to be differentiation between those that are more skilled than those that are less skilled. I support that more skilled people getting paid more than those that are less skilled. I think it's fundamentally fair. In Silicon Valley, most tech jobs are not nooses around anyone's neck. And that's a great environment to live in that would have been ruined by unions. In fact,…

> There needs to be differentiation between those that are more skilled than those that are less skilled.

Where does skill come from?

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#140

Post by lonelappde »

duxup wrote: post #59
overthemoon wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO the question is--given the capacity for corruption and mismanagement in a union, is that better or worse than an individual negotiating with a corporation? Does the potential for a bad union outweigh the potential for a bad company? I'll just say I don't think unions or the concept of a union needs to be perfect to generally have a positive effect. Maybe I'm naive. I can see your point about premature unionizatio…

>I'll just say I don't think unions or the concept of a union needs to be perfect to generally have a positive effect. Maybe I'm naive. I can understand that. Personally I've had experiences with two unions in different industries. Each time the unions were IMO more of a hindrance to me than anything else. They were for me just another layer of bureaucracy with no more interest in me than a poor employer. Worse yet t…

Why are protections for unrpoductive shareholders and managers acceptable, but protections for unproductive workers not?
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