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South Korean government to switch to Linux: ministry

koreaherald.com

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Re: South Korean government to switch to Linux: ministry

#131
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically Total Cost of Ownership (TCO). This is something people forget about. OS and app licenses are likely a drop in the ocean compared to the operating costs of supporting your infrastructure (regardless of whether it runs on Windows or Linux). [edit: TOC -> TCO]

TOC seems to conveniently leave out risk as a factor too. At least at the sales level. And yet the amount of failed systems migrations I've seen... If I have a 50% chance to cut my IT budget by 15%, if I remake my org, is it worth it?

I've seen some spectacular cockups over the years and eye watering sums of money burned because no-one factored in risk properly. And they more often than not happen on government projects, and usually some big name consultancy is heavily involved - Capita, PwC et-al.

Re: South Korean government to switch to Linux: ministry

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was actually worse than that when I lived in Korea. It wasn't just Windows that you needed, it was Korean Windows . I thought I'd be okay because I was running dual boot machines with Linux and Windows. Nope. Windows purchased in the US simply did not work with many of the sites. (My understanding is that most software written for commerce/government sites had Korean people that purchased a Windows computer in Kor…

I lived in Korea between 2010 and 2015 and I never needed the Korean version of Windows. Even my work computer was running the en-US version. Your just need to switch the default locale and codepage for the occasional poorly written software (mostly old installers), it just takes a reboot.

MS had completely separate custom builds of Windows (made out of completely different binaries) until XP at least. E.g. an English Windows and a German Windows would install completely different files and the only way tonswitch system language was a reinstall. Conponents to support CJK were not part of these installs, either. This changed with Vista or 7 (don't remember) where they were able to seperate Windows into a core plus a set of language packs for all regions.

So depending on which version of Windows you are talking about you might both be right.

Re: South Korean government to switch to Linux: ministry

#133
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"... and hire people to build out the main infrastructure they need." There's a reason Microsoft was successful for years: they built turn-key solutions, and added new turn-key features their customers requested. Switching from that sort of IT to a linux-based, 'we need a system architect' model doesn't happen overnight. There's organization shift, cultural shift, firing unneeded people who won't retrain, retraining…

Basically Total Cost of Ownership (TCO). This is something people forget about. OS and app licenses are likely a drop in the ocean compared to the operating costs of supporting your infrastructure (regardless of whether it runs on Windows or Linux). [edit: TOC -> TCO]

TCO was also a big part of the marketing campaign of Microsoft against Linux in the late 90ies, early 00s.

A big difference compared to one or two decades ago is that a lot of domain-specific services have moved to web applications. So, there are probably a lot of machines out there that are just glorified web browsing machines.

Also, the popularity of iOS and Android have made more applications cross-platform.

Of course, once Office documents or legacy Win32 applications are part of the equation, you can't really beat Windows. It is a common misconception that LibreOffice could replace Office. I use a Linux desktop and a MacBook and most of the Word/Excel paperwork that I have to do (luckily irregularly) does not open correctly in LibreOffice. Of course, it is an uphill battle for the LO folks.

Re: South Korean government to switch to Linux: ministry

#134

At this rate, it really feels like the next version of Windows will be derived from some Unix os. Windows 8 and onwards has been an unmitigated IT disaster. Windows Server is meh. I once ran Ubuntu mate with a windows theme on a computer terminal in a computer lab, and everybody clamored to use it since it was faster, better at printing, and never bluescreened. (That particular model was forced into "obselecence" by…

Just as another anecdote to yours, I regularly get months of uptime with my Windows 10 dev box. Its been nothing but rock solid for me (so was 7 and 8 before that).

Re: South Korean government to switch to Linux: ministry

#135
post #31
post #8

I used to support our office in S. Korea. It's true they depend super heavily on ActiveX and other weird applets/software that runs only on Windows and/or IE. A lot of the communication with the government (yearly tax submission) as well as banking software would not run on our Linux or OSX devices, and so we had these 'loaner' windows 'tax machines' that got reimaged every few days that people could use to do their…

The word processor by Hancom is actually pretty nice, especially for composing Korean-only and mixed Korean-and-English documents. I've been using it since before I even knew that MS Word existed, and I still prefer it to MS Word for anything that contains CJK characters. The proprietary file format is a PITA, though. Hancom did release a Linux version of their office suite a few years ago, and regularly updates the…

To explain the history a little bit (as a Korean):

Hancom's Hangul software was popular in Korea in the 90s because of its splendid Hangul support (Word wasn't that good at it back in the day). So it became a de-facto "standard" for Korean documents. But the problem was, piracy was really rampant at the time, because it was before online DRM protection technologies came into light. (They've tried hardware DRM, like the serial port dongles, which eventually were cracked.) They almost went bankrupt, up to the point where Microsoft was thinking about buying them out (there are a lot of conflicting info about this in the internet, so I don't know exactly what deal might have gone through)

But then, when Koreans learned about this imminent danger, they launched a national campaign to save the company, and raised over $10 million for them. As for why this was possible: nationalism was pretty strong back in the late 90s, partly because of Korea's IMF crisis. (If you want to read more about the Korean economic recession and how people responded to it with activism, read more about the Gold-collecting campaign in 1998 [0]) Because of this, Hancom was able to recover and still be alive to this day.

Nowadays more and more Koreans are using Word these days, but Hancom's software still has lots of uses, especially in the government. The Hangul word processor had some unique characteristics other than just language support: most notably it was one of the first word processors to have nested table support. Because of this, many Hangul documents have layouts made of nested tables (I know some people at HN would be utterly disgusted with this, but this has many benefits: you can have total control of your document layout, and it's good for making documents with dense information such as government forms.) This is why Hangul documents cannot be simply converted to Word; the two have very different conventions about layout in general.

To conclude, reflecting this as a Korean (and an avid Linux user), I have both good and bad feelings about this. On one hand, Koreans were forced to use a proprietary, non-free program to open their documents, including important government stuff. This also sucks for Mac and Linux users (The Mac version was horrible the last time I've used it, and I couldn't get the Linux version to install on Arch Linux). On the other hand, if Hancom wasn't alive, then Koreans would be forced to use Microsoft Word with subpar Korean support (because Microsoft wouldn't really care about Korean language support unless there was competition). While I have mixed feelings about Hancom, I really hope that they would provide good support for Linux users in Korea.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold-collecting_campaign

Re: South Korean government to switch to Linux: ministry

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They also tried that in many countries, they all go back to using Windows. uhh... no, here in France a lot of public infrastructure runs on linux.

The list of LibreOffice users hasn't grown, but hasn't shrunk either[0]. Kudos to the French for so far being the biggest Western-state to implement FOSS. Apart from the obvious benefit of lower cost, security and personal individualization are further benefits. No matter what the politicians or business will tell you: Any government running Windows on their systems is basically broadcasting their data straight into…

Also, the maintainer of Linux distribution can be a local company so that public funds don't go to USA.

Re: South Korean government to switch to Linux: ministry

#137
post #11
post #3

> ... as Microsoft’s free technical support for Windows 7 expires in January 2020. they are still on Windows 7? ouch!!!

Maybe I got older and life lost some color, but the difference between Windows 10 and Windows 7 doesn't feel like the difference between 7 and XP. Seems like most of the action (outside gaming and Office power users) has moved to browsers and browser wrappers.

Depends on if you're a technical user or just a casual user. There is a ton of difference under the hood. I appreciate the new security features like LSA protection, hardening of the heap, improved ASLR, etc.

Re: South Korean government to switch to Linux: ministry

#138

What I really don't understand is why commercial stations (like burger king's, ice cream stands etc...) uses windows when all those computers do is show either videos or static images

I'm guessing here: The guys installing those arguably very simple IT-systems mostly couldn't bother with Linux.

Add to that, (at least here in Germany) BK is a franchise that sells licenses to franchise operators, so I doubt they have strict requirements on the actual IT setup, just the pictures they need to display.

So you have very normal, run-off-the-mill managers and IT services, the former unable to grasp that Windows 10 with constant updates and fuck-ups will constantly require the services of the IT guys, and the latter naturally profiting of that. The increased margin of not using Windows wouldn't be enough to compensate that, and an increased price for a Linux package is something very difficult to convince those managers of.

And then also IT-people well versed in Linux usually have clients who pay substantially more than simply outfitting non-IT businesses with IT-equipment.

Re: South Korean government to switch to Linux: ministry

#139
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would that be too much work? I expect total cost of ownership for the government distro to be way less, than using those "well maintained" ones.

I say they use Arch Linux, automate the install and management using some DevOps and call it a day. it already supports pretty much every piece of modern software under the sun.

Maybe Arch Linux is a bit too bleeding edge, but perhaps it could be done (I'm currently using Manjaro and it's as solid as the other distros out there)
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