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We can't judge another programmer's abilities in a 60 minute interview

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Re: We can't judge another programmer's abilities in a 60 minute interview

#131

Post by enraged_camel »

hayksaakian wrote: post #118
enraged_camel wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The distinction is meaningless. No company wants someone who can merely code (as determined by their ability to solve fizzbuzz-type stuff). They want someone who can code well.

I think you're missing the point. The purpose is to Filter out people who can't code at all. If you've ever hired developers you know how many people show up to interviews and genuinely cannot program to save their life.

>>The purpose is to Filter out people who can't code at all.

You shouldn't need a 60-minute in-person interview to figure out that they can't code.

Re: We can't judge another programmer's abilities in a 60 minute interview

#132

Post by [deleted] »

crispyambulance wrote: post #43
CJefferson wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wouldn't be asked to "fizzbuzz". You would be asked to write an extremely trivial program, which would take you about 3 minutes. Also, if you have guaranteed years of experience, fizzbuzz isn't for you. However, a suprisingly large number of applicants who can write an impressive looking CV can't write it.

I've also "heard" that the ratio of people who fail at fizzbuzz is truly disturbing even if they have impressive CV's. It makes me wonder, though. Has anyone ever just admitted they failed at fizzbuzz here on HN? I can imagine someone bombing it if they're nervous or if they forgot the modulo operator in their language of choice and got lost doing it an "ugly" error-prone way because they were too embarrassed to chan…

[deleted]

Re: We can't judge another programmer's abilities in a 60 minute interview

#133

Post by neonate »

segmondy wrote: post #55

You can judge programmer's ability in 60 minutes. Can someone program? 60 minutes is way more than enough. How great of a programmer are they? You're going to need more than 60 minutes, unless already had a chance to look at their prior code base. What's difficult to judge is, are they organized? are they hard working? how do they handle stress? how's their communication and attitude? do they write great documentatio…

> How great of a programmer are they? You're going to need more than 60 minutes

That's clearly what the OP was saying.

Re: We can't judge another programmer's abilities in a 60 minute interview

#134

Post by neonate »

rsweeney21 wrote: post #32

Post author here: My new company helps companies fill contract software positions. We're a lot like a recruiting or staffing agency, but trying to do it in a new, less spammy way. It's been REALLY frustrating working with hiring managers. I used to be one of these frustrating hiring managers so I guess I had it coming. I had a hiring manager tell me that he can tell in the first 15 min of an interview if someone is a…

I read this in your HN profile: "Facet is a marketplace for hiring ex-Google, Netflix, Facebook, etc devs." Doesn't that mean you're excluding everyone who wasn't chosen by the very hiring managers you're criticizing, at an elite list of companies?

Re: We can't judge another programmer's abilities in a 60 minute interview

#135

Post by otabdeveloper2 »

andrewstuart wrote: post #90

I am both a recruiter and a highly experienced developer and software designer. I once sent one of the very best programmers I know for a job interview. I have met a small handful of outstanding programmers in my > 30 years in IT and this guy was in the top five, near the top. I had personally worked directly with him for 5 years and he was unquestionably one of the most talented programmers there is, and a nice guy,…

Sounds like this guy was overqualified for the position. (Probably asked too much money, too.)

The fact that the candidate went on to a non-programming position confirms.

In any case, it was the strings you pulled that let the guy get promoted.

Re: We can't judge another programmer's abilities in a 60 minute interview

#136

Post by andrewstuart »

otabdeveloper2 wrote: post #135
andrewstuart wrote: post #90

I am both a recruiter and a highly experienced developer and software designer. I once sent one of the very best programmers I know for a job interview. I have met a small handful of outstanding programmers in my > 30 years in IT and this guy was in the top five, near the top. I had personally worked directly with him for 5 years and he was unquestionably one of the most talented programmers there is, and a nice guy,…

Sounds like this guy was overqualified for the position. (Probably asked too much money, too.) The fact that the candidate went on to a non-programming position confirms. In any case, it was the strings you pulled that let the guy get promoted.

All your conclusions are wrong.

He wasn't asking too much money.

He wasn't overqualified.

He took the job and did programming.

Why you assume lead architect means not programming is not something I know.

I didn't pull strings to get him promoted.

But all your conclusions illustrate why technical recruiting is so broken - no-one ever has any problem justifying outcomes after the fact and making up stories to match their own reality.

Re: We can't judge another programmer's abilities in a 60 minute interview

#137

Post by andrewstuart »

mattrp wrote: post #117
andrewstuart wrote: post #90

I am both a recruiter and a highly experienced developer and software designer. I once sent one of the very best programmers I know for a job interview. I have met a small handful of outstanding programmers in my > 30 years in IT and this guy was in the top five, near the top. I had personally worked directly with him for 5 years and he was unquestionably one of the most talented programmers there is, and a nice guy,…

I’ve seen this so many times as well where candidates under sell themselves or key accomplishments never get brought up. Even Elon Musk in the most recent Autonomy day had to say to Karparthy “introduce yourself and don’t be bashful.” Even then, I’ve noticed, I’ve noticed that people don’t “hear” things until a second or third conversation. The idea that you can absolutely hear everything a candidate has to say in 60…

You assume that the reason the guy did not get the job is that candidate undersold themselves.

It is mostly the responsibility of the technical interviewers to determine if the candidate is suitable.

Re: We can't judge another programmer's abilities in a 60 minute interview

#138

Post by julienreszka »

Sometimes I think we would be better off hiring people on the spot at random.

In France we have a legal maximal 4 months trial period for employees so... This gives enough time I think.

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1643

Re: We can't judge another programmer's abilities in a 60 minute interview

#139

Post by baconmania »

What's interesting is that most thoughtful people in the industry agree that our conventions around interviewing make for an almost hilariously arbitrary hiring process, but very few large software orgs have actually changed the way they hire.

Re: We can't judge another programmer's abilities in a 60 minute interview

#140

Post by voxl »

BinaryIdiot wrote: post #64
MikeTaylor wrote: post #2

Obviously interviewing isn't 100% accurate. Almost nothing is. You definitely can't tell in 60 minutes whether someone will be a success at your company. But you often can tell, with very very nearly 100% confidence if someone will not be a success. And that is the purpose of the interview. To filter out the "definitely not"s — the programmers who can't write fizzbuzz. And yes, I have seen plenty of these. And interv…

> You definitely can't tell in 60 minutes whether someone will be a success at your company. > But you often can tell, with very very nearly 100% confidence if someone will not be a success. These two statements are at odds. If you can tell one you can tell the inverse. The truth is you can't tell in either direction from a single 60 minute interview. Your "very very nearly 100% confidence" rate is outlandishly wrong…

It's hilarious to me that your name is BinaryIdiot and your post is a false dichotomy.
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