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A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

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Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#131

Post by cbnotfromthere »

JoelMcCracken wrote: post #64
Apreche wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this. If we create hardware and software ethically, that product will not make enough money. Capitalism is almost entirely add odds with ethical engineering practices. Think about it. Imagine Facebook not doing anything evil. Never selling your data without your permission. Never spying on you. Putting lots of restrictions on advertisements to make sure they are all ok. Banning all the bad users. Reporting an…

You say it as if these companies shutting down would be a bad thing. These products exploit their users in ways the users and society at large does not yet understand. If a product cant be profitable without abusing its power, it shouldn't exist.

So basically you're advocating for stopping adults from voluntarily engaging into a victimless activity.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#132

Post by frickinLasers »

analognoise wrote: post #78
detaro wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that if people could rely on that the weapons they make are used defensively, many more would be willing to make weapons. In many countries, you can't rely on that, and making tools that reduce risk increase the leaderships willingness to use force more offensively. And of course there's a large unclear area where one persons long-term defensive measure is another persons justified intervention, and another…

Agreed about risk reduction leading to increased use of force, that's totally the case - look at drones. However while the frequency might increase, the scale and impact is at an all-time low. WW1: 40 million dead. Drones: "According to the Long War Journal, which follows US anti-terror developments, as of mid-2011, drone strikes in Pakistan since 2006 had killed 2,018 militants and 138 civilian". Hard to argue with…

This isn't total war. Technically it's not even a war, but a "Military Operation Other Than War" (MOOTW). We're not fighting against a coalition of countries; we're fighting a few thousand dudes in caves with AK-47s and rusty Russian ordnance. Of course there will be fewer casualties. Yet still we've managed to kill upwards of 100,000 people, mostly innocents, across 18 years of occupation, in retaliation for a lucky strike that killed 3,000 Americans. You're right--that's actually a lower number for direct casualties than I expected. But I seethe knowing this is what my "defense" tax dollars fund.

Those drones just make it easier to continue killing people tagged as "militants" (a very flexible word in the hands of our government, I'm sure) while removing deterrents, like the idea that our children could be sent off to die in such a campaign. So now we have robots killing people the government doesn't care about, simply because they have been identified as the "enemy." I think I've seen this movie before.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#133

Post by [deleted] »

frickinLasers wrote: post #132
analognoise wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed about risk reduction leading to increased use of force, that's totally the case - look at drones. However while the frequency might increase, the scale and impact is at an all-time low. WW1: 40 million dead. Drones: "According to the Long War Journal, which follows US anti-terror developments, as of mid-2011, drone strikes in Pakistan since 2006 had killed 2,018 militants and 138 civilian". Hard to argue with…

This isn't total war. Technically it's not even a war, but a "Military Operation Other Than War" (MOOTW). We're not fighting against a coalition of countries; we're fighting a few thousand dudes in caves with AK-47s and rusty Russian ordnance. Of course there will be fewer casualties. Yet still we've managed to kill upwards of 100,000 people, mostly innocents, across 18 years of occupation, in retaliation for a lucky…

[deleted]

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#134

Post by analognoise »

frickinLasers wrote: post #132
analognoise wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed about risk reduction leading to increased use of force, that's totally the case - look at drones. However while the frequency might increase, the scale and impact is at an all-time low. WW1: 40 million dead. Drones: "According to the Long War Journal, which follows US anti-terror developments, as of mid-2011, drone strikes in Pakistan since 2006 had killed 2,018 militants and 138 civilian". Hard to argue with…

This isn't total war. Technically it's not even a war, but a "Military Operation Other Than War" (MOOTW). We're not fighting against a coalition of countries; we're fighting a few thousand dudes in caves with AK-47s and rusty Russian ordnance. Of course there will be fewer casualties. Yet still we've managed to kill upwards of 100,000 people, mostly innocents, across 18 years of occupation, in retaliation for a lucky…

Mostly innocents? That's not supported by the numbers I was looking at.

Could you point me to these numbers? It looked to me like killing a whole slew of extremists for extremely minimal collateral damage.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#135

Post by analognoise »

cryoshon wrote: post #103
analognoise wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's unethical is to have your countrymen in a fight with substandard equipment that you could have helped them improve. War is an ever-present possibility - do you want your neighbor's kids (or yours, if they join the service) dying or being maimed because you didn't help with what you know? 1000 years ago, if you were a blacksmith and the Vikings were coming, would you make swords or ornamental railings? People w…

>What's unethical is to have your countrymen in a fight with substandard equipment that you could have helped them improve. if the fight's imminent or already on, sure. but most of the time weapons are made long before there is the anticipation of a fight. if nation A has a weapon that lets them fight without risking their soldiers as much as nation B, nation A will always be more willing to enter armed conflict, esp…

It takes 10-20 years to field a capable modern weapons platform. It would be ridiculous to wait for the fight to be joined before developing your platforms.

The air Force joke is "it isn't your Dad's air Force, but it might be his plane." Service lifetimes of some craft are past 50 years.

I don't mind a done war that field tests all of our systems, kills a slew of bad people, and costs us no blood. That's a good deal to me.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#136

Post by frickinLasers »

analognoise wrote: post #134
frickinLasers wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't total war. Technically it's not even a war, but a "Military Operation Other Than War" (MOOTW). We're not fighting against a coalition of countries; we're fighting a few thousand dudes in caves with AK-47s and rusty Russian ordnance. Of course there will be fewer casualties. Yet still we've managed to kill upwards of 100,000 people, mostly innocents, across 18 years of occupation, in retaliation for a lucky…

Mostly innocents? That's not supported by the numbers I was looking at. Could you point me to these numbers? It looked to me like killing a whole slew of extremists for extremely minimal collateral damage.

I wasn't referring to drone strikes in particular. I pulled the numbers from from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_in_the_war... and might have misread the 30k wounded as additional deaths. So "most" could be wrong, but the numbers have a way of reflecting the best possible outcome for us.

I'll try to be more precise in future rants.

As for drone strikes: https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2018/11/14/...

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#137

Post by frickinLasers »

analognoise wrote: post #45
maxxxxx wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people will think creating weapons for defense is an ethical thing to do. I prefer not to do that but I think the point is valid and there is no clear way to determine what’s ethical and what isn't.

What's unethical is to have your countrymen in a fight with substandard equipment that you could have helped them improve. War is an ever-present possibility - do you want your neighbor's kids (or yours, if they join the service) dying or being maimed because you didn't help with what you know? 1000 years ago, if you were a blacksmith and the Vikings were coming, would you make swords or ornamental railings? People w…

I used to think like this. But these days I believe we've lost our moral high ground, beginning with OIF and continuing with countless unethical, shady things people in power are doing in the name of the red herring that is "national security." I've lost faith in this country's ability to wisely wield the technology it has.

Maybe it was always this way and I just had a rosy outlook early in life, but it seems at some recent point we became the bad guys. I don't want to make weapons, or anything really, for the bad guys.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#138

Post by [deleted] »

kazagistar wrote: post #72
glbrew wrote: post #43

Ironically technologists seem to have higher ethical standards than doctors and lawyers. Hell, the entire US medical system revolves around financial assault of the infirm.

Medical system vs medical professionals are very different. You can't solve systemic issues with individualized responsibility. It's not that doctors are bad, it's privatized healthcare that is causing the problem, and requires systemic solutions (since it's clear the same problems don't exist under other systems). What's really happening here is that Facebook wants to push for blaming individuals, because it let's t…

[deleted]

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#140

Post by frickinLasers »

analognoise wrote: post #45
maxxxxx wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people will think creating weapons for defense is an ethical thing to do. I prefer not to do that but I think the point is valid and there is no clear way to determine what’s ethical and what isn't.

What's unethical is to have your countrymen in a fight with substandard equipment that you could have helped them improve. War is an ever-present possibility - do you want your neighbor's kids (or yours, if they join the service) dying or being maimed because you didn't help with what you know? 1000 years ago, if you were a blacksmith and the Vikings were coming, would you make swords or ornamental railings? People w…

Regardless of how this country uses or misuses their weapons, I have to say this is really impressive: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/05/dod-cia-develope...
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