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Why the Flow of Time Is an Illusion

nautil.us

131–140 of 195 posts

Re: Why the Flow of Time Is an Illusion

#131
post #129

I find this quote fascinating: "What I think that means is there is no holy era of time. It emerged. If, in the distant future, we find ourselves in a universe where all the stars have burned out, and all the black holes have evaporated, and all the radiation has been diluted by the dark energy that expanded our universe, and all we have is some very cold bath of photons here and there—basically thermal equilibrium;…

Here is the crux. Time IS motion. We measure this motion of objects relative to one another by comparing their motion to a standard set of things in motion called a clock. There is nothing else to time except that; but it is real, as real as anything, it is not an illusion.

> [time] is real, as real as anything, it is not an illusion.

Now the arrow of time on the other hand...

Re: Why the Flow of Time Is an Illusion

#132
post #84

I find this quote fascinating: "What I think that means is there is no holy era of time. It emerged. If, in the distant future, we find ourselves in a universe where all the stars have burned out, and all the black holes have evaporated, and all the radiation has been diluted by the dark energy that expanded our universe, and all we have is some very cold bath of photons here and there—basically thermal equilibrium;…

> if ... the entire universe is essentially one uniform mass, wouldn't that mass then collapse upon itself, in a kind of big bounce? de Sitter space is a vacuum solution for Einstein's field equations. What this means is that the stress-energy tensor is basically "canceled out" everywhere by the uniform energy distribution. That means no point in spacetime experiences any field influence. That means no gravity, that…

Is it not the case that energy has mass? Why wouldn’t this be equivalent to a uniform mass distribution?

Re: Why the Flow of Time Is an Illusion

#133
post #77

I find this quote fascinating: "What I think that means is there is no holy era of time. It emerged. If, in the distant future, we find ourselves in a universe where all the stars have burned out, and all the black holes have evaporated, and all the radiation has been diluted by the dark energy that expanded our universe, and all we have is some very cold bath of photons here and there—basically thermal equilibrium;…

> I am not a cosmologist, but if all of space reached thermal equilibrium, if space does have any mass (perhaps a tiny amount from the dark energy it contains?), and the entire universe is essentially one uniform mass, wouldn't that mass then collapse upon itself, in a kind of big bounce? Nor am I, but as long as the universe keeps expanding and everything keeps flying apart the average density will probably continue…

Dark energy would simply accelerate the asymptotic approach to equilibrium by spreading everything out. When everything is evenly spread out and in thermal equilibrium, the aggregate effect of gravity could take over, if the mass/energy of the universe was truly uniformly distributed. Or this is my armchair/idiot idea anyway.

Re: Why the Flow of Time Is an Illusion

#134
post #29
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a very precise definition of time: a second is "the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom". It is used in a lot of physical equations which are very accurate at describing the universe as we observe it. There are some philosophical questions regarding time. Questions about the arrow of tim…

> We have a very precise definition of time > a second is Well that's a very precise definition of a second (unit of time), but not of time itself.

Yet, historically and practically the notion of 'time' has always been tied to a clock - the daily cycle, the change of seasons, etc. For example, when people said, "time has passed," they meant a certain number of natural cycles - days, seasons or years. The abstract, "theoretical" time, untied to any clock, is a relatively recent invention and, in fact, very well may be a fiction.

Re: Why the Flow of Time Is an Illusion

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem with that line of reasoning is you're assuming the brain is a computer, or that it merely computes. The brain can compute. That's extraordinary. I say one type of thing does that, computers. You say no, two things, computers and then also brains. But when pressed to explain what is a brain if not a computer you'll just sputter (probably at length) without offering any substance. In a sense that's the wr…

> The brain can compute. You'll see in my comment and your quote that I don't say the brain can't compute. I agree, the brain can compute. But that doesn't mean it is a computer, because computing is an ability . People can do many other things aside from computing, none of which rely on computation, for instance they can imagine, which is the ability to think new thoughts. Computers can't imagine because all they do…

"No amount of programming can produce imagination" is a very bold statement to make.

The brain exists in a physical universe, made out of matter/energy, and its behaviours are entirely dictated by the laws of physics; that's a fairly accepted truth unless you have solid evidence otherwise.

The laws of physics are mathematical and can be computed by their very nature, and we are already pretty good at simulating physical interactions to a quantum level, and this ability improves over time.

At some point in time, unless there is "magic" or missing physics, a sufficiently powerful computer with a physically accurate simulation of a brain would produce virtually identical results to a real brain.

So either there must be new physics involved, or, the notion that a sufficiently advanced computer simulation can't produce imagination must be abandoned.

A team of scientists able to sufficiently model the physics of the brain (and presumably the entire central nervous system, I imagine a disembodied brain simulation would experience a horrific form of locked-in syndrome) would not need to be concerned about emergent properties of the simulation such as a sense of consciousness, or thought, or imagination. Those things will just happen once the simulation is perfected.

Indeed the cognitive neuroscience folk, etc, would be invaluable to actually understanding, training, interpreting and caring for the brain simulation, and figuring out if its behaviours and interactions constitute consciousness etc, so I do not think this has to even be framed as programmers pretending to know about brain stuff vs brain people who dismiss any notion of computationally recreating consciousness. It would be a team effort that works both ways, but is already doomed to fail if half the team thinks it's impossible from the get-go.

Re: Why the Flow of Time Is an Illusion

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not an expert, but I don't think that quote is quite right. There is still a notion of time, there is just no notion of a direction of time. For example, if you go deep into empty space, then one patch of space looks just like the next one. That doesn't mean there is no longer a physical concept of space. Similarly, just because one point in time doesn't look very different from the next, doesn't mean that there…

Speaking of this, does anyone know of an explanation for why the direction in spacetime in which entropy decreases is parallel to the time dimension (the one with a different sign in the relativistic metric) of spacetime? Maybe I'm missing something, but I've never seen a link made between the two.

As opposed to entropy decreasing as you travel, say, toward the galactic north? It's a good question. One answer could be the mostly spatially uniform initial conditions of the big bang.

Also, a spatial entropy gradient would gradually diffuse over time to become uniform again.

But in general, the arrow of time is a consequence of systems that store a memory of their pasts, which is possible because the past is lower entropy than the future. (The past can be more accurately predicted by querying the state of the data in memory than the future can). You could probably set up a carefully designed system with a spatial entropy gradient, and somehow get a memory where the arrangement of atoms on the left always "remembers" the arrangement of atoms on the right, but not the other way around. Maybe there are even systems like this found in nature? Interesting to think about.

Re: Why the Flow of Time Is an Illusion

#137
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The brain can compute. You'll see in my comment and your quote that I don't say the brain can't compute. I agree, the brain can compute. But that doesn't mean it is a computer, because computing is an ability . People can do many other things aside from computing, none of which rely on computation, for instance they can imagine, which is the ability to think new thoughts. Computers can't imagine because all they do…

"No amount of programming can produce imagination" is a very bold statement to make. The brain exists in a physical universe, made out of matter/energy, and its behaviours are entirely dictated by the laws of physics; that's a fairly accepted truth unless you have solid evidence otherwise. The laws of physics are mathematical and can be computed by their very nature, and we are already pretty good at simulating physi…

It's not a remotely bold statement. Think about what imagination is, and then think about whether computers can imagine. Computers can't imagine. Computers can't come up with new things because they are programmed. Programming prescribes the outputs to the same limitations as the inputs: it's a closed deterministic system.

You'll see in my comment above this one that I agree that the brain is a physical thing. But abilities and powers are not physical. That's not voodoo magic. That's what abilities are. Think about horsepower. The horsepower of a car does not reside in any one physical thing, not the carburetor, or the intake manifold, or the piston, or the wheels; it's an ability of the car: it is able to go at such and such horsepower. That is what horsepower is.

The same applies to computation. Computing something is an ability, but we have many more intellectual and cognitive abilities beside computing things.

As a result

> a sufficiently powerful computer with a physically accurate simulation of a brain would produce virtually identical results to a real brain.

is just you are assuming that it will work, but nothing about computers supports that in the slightest. That's just a guess.

> A team of scientists able to sufficiently model the physics of the brain (and presumably the entire central nervous system, I imagine a disembodied brain simulation would experience a horrific form of locked-in syndrome) would not need to be concerned about emergent properties of the simulation such as a sense of consciousness, or thought, or imagination. Those things will just happen once the simulation is perfected.

All of this is still an assumption.

Again, that doesn't mean you are right or wrong: it means its an assumption. You have to accept the limitations of your assumption and the limitations of modelling the brain on a computer are large and glaring.

> Indeed the cognitive neuroscience folk, etc, would be invaluable to actually understanding, training, interpreting and caring for the brain simulation, and figuring out if its behaviours and interactions constitute consciousness etc, so I do not think this has to even be framed as programmers pretending to know about brain stuff vs brain people who dismiss any notion of computationally recreating consciousness. It would be a team effort that works both ways, but is already doomed to fail if half the team thinks it's impossible from the get-go.

You are assuming here that only the programmers are heading down the right path. But you don't know that. It's entirely reasonable (and I would say much more supportable) to say that the programmers are heading down the wrong path: their path will lead to nothing at all. That's because the programmers have fallen to a category error.

You think they need to model the brain on a computer for it to make sense. But there is actually very little if anything to support that.

Brains are brains. Computers are computers. That computer science can be fuzzily applied to the study of brains around the ability to compute does not mean the study of brains is computer science or that brains are computers.

Re: Why the Flow of Time Is an Illusion

#138

I find this quote fascinating: "What I think that means is there is no holy era of time. It emerged. If, in the distant future, we find ourselves in a universe where all the stars have burned out, and all the black holes have evaporated, and all the radiation has been diluted by the dark energy that expanded our universe, and all we have is some very cold bath of photons here and there—basically thermal equilibrium;…

Imagine a ball rolling down a huge basin. Very deep, ball gets a terminal velocity, rolls down at constant speed. Then the basin shallows, and finally the ball reaches the bottom. From the ball's point of view, "downnwardness", an ineluctable constant, has ceased to exist.

Re: Why the Flow of Time Is an Illusion

#139
post #41

I live by a couple of (vaguely related) principles: a) Consciousness is just your brain trying to anticipate the future. b) Your brain compresses (normalises?) repetition in memories. So even if day to day events happen at normal speed, the years seem to fly by when you reflect on them. If your life seems to be flying-by then maybe you need more novelty.

I would argue that consciousnes is just the feedback loop of the brain sensing itself

Other animals are alive and conscious, but I'm pretty sure they don't have a sense of self.

Re: Why the Flow of Time Is an Illusion

#140

I love these discussions, they make my brain hurt in a good way. However, I've trouble applying them to daily life. Is there something we should change in ourselves because of these new insights?

I treat it as very base: be glad that we are who we are, that we can ponder these types of questions, and that it's OK that we may never get any hints, let alone answers, to these questions. Feynman has a good answer to something similar to this in one of those interviews from the 80s; he was perfectly okay with not understanding everything about the universe.
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