Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

norway.no

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 234 posts

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#131

Post by dontreact »

npongratz wrote: post #129
skosch wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make it revenue neutral ­­– look up fee and dividend, the method favoured by most economists. The bottom ~2/3rd of households would, on average, get more money back than the tax would cost them.

> The bottom ~2/3rd of households would, on average, get more money back than the tax would cost them. Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding: 2/3rds of households would first have to pay up, and then they'll get more money back than they paid in? If that's true, it sounds like it would be instituting needless added complexity, with a layer added for politicians and bureaucrats to take a cut before giving it back.

The value add of the layer in complexity is that the costs of some goods but not others would go up. This would make buying and investing in renewables more favorable economically.

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#132

Post by dontreact »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #45
empath75 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Institute a carbon tax that fully captures the externalities of releasing CO2 in the air and people will be forced to.

Institute a carbon tax and it'll vanish into someone's pocket while the manufactured goods still have the same emissions.

You can have a revenue neutral carbon tax where the funds go back into people’s pockets, but the change in consumption pattern would happen because for example renewable energy would not increase in price.

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#133

Post by karambahh »

sideshowb wrote: post #123
wjnc wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an economist I fully agree. It's not the solution but the measure that helps consumers in ranking all possible solutions. Why is flying without kerosine tax? Why do we spend a few k€ on electric car subsidies per MT less emitted. A tax would make things like this transparant. All we need is some party with the clout of the EU or US to get this thing going. There is no opting out trading with us and no opting out f…

> CO2 accounting and taxing will be a massive invitation for corruption, gaming and bad actors That's the problem already. We've had a CO2 price for a long time - but it's meaninglessly low. I can only presume because of lobbying from those with vested interests.

CO2 fraud has been uncovered in the EU VAT zone[0] 1.6 billion euros skimmed by a dozen people in France. Up to 10 billion for the EU as a whole.

Unfortunately I could only find sources in french or hebrew but the amounts amassed by this operation is staggering.

[0]https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraude_%C3%A0_la_TVA_sur_les...

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#134

Post by BurningFrog »

andrepd wrote: post #43
StreamBright wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what most Westerners do not get about China. If you want to reduce emissions stop buying their products.

People do get that, but waiting for people to spontaneously start doing the right thing is just not a very good strategy. That's why we need a carbon tax. To force people to.

I don't think China would consent to being taxed like that.

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#135

Post by BurningFrog »

StreamBright wrote: post #4
maaaats wrote: post #2

> In 2010, Norway pledged to support Indonesia with up to 1 billion USD depending on results. It's easy to sit in a developed western country, buying products from other countries, and then complain about their emissions. I'm glad that we're trying to be responsible. It may not be enough or not the right way to do it (some thoughts on this?), but it's something.

This is exactly what most Westerners do not get about China. If you want to reduce emissions stop buying their products.

My pragmatic take is that if we keep buying their stuff - and we will - they will soon become rich enough to clean up their environment, just like all rich countries do.

If you're familiar with the history of industrialism, all currently clean and rich countries went through a phase of horrible dirtiness as they rose out of awful poverty.

Fortunately, China seems to go through the same steps as the west 3-5 times faster than we did.

Sometimes, the only way out is through!

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#136

Post by sarchertech »

varjag wrote: post #27
nabla9 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China is the sole producer of certain electronic components I don't believe this is correct in meaningful sense. Do you have any examples? China assembles many components, but that's not something that can't be moved to elsewhere. Vietnam is already replacing China. Best way to deal with exported CO2 emissions is to put carbon tax on imports and not to try to control where they are manufactured.

Nearly all passives, generic active components, and a bulk of the cheaper processes ICs are being produced in China for a while now. PCBA production is another issue, but much of it happens in China too. Vietnam doesn't seem to be really that different from China in politics, environment or other respects. It is hard to see how moving things from China to Vietnam is an improvement.

>It is hard to see how moving things from China to Vietnam is an improvement.

It's an improvement in the way that multiple competitors are almost always an improvement. Say the world wants to pressure China to reduce CO2 emissions or release the Uighurs from internment camps, having another producer of certain critical goods weakens their negotiating position.

Also Vietnam is a lot more likely to be open to democratic reforms than China is in the foreseeable future.

>Nearly all passives

Also this is not true.

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#137

Post by lotsofpulp »

BurningFrog wrote: post #135
StreamBright wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what most Westerners do not get about China. If you want to reduce emissions stop buying their products.

My pragmatic take is that if we keep buying their stuff - and we will - they will soon become rich enough to clean up their environment, just like all rich countries do. If you're familiar with the history of industrialism, all currently clean and rich countries went through a phase of horrible dirtiness as they rose out of awful poverty. Fortunately, China seems to go through the same steps as the west 3-5 times fas…

You think the environment will continue to be relatively hospitable to humans while we go "through" China, then India, then Africa/South America?

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#138

Post by Gpetrium »

aboutruby wrote: post #14

Wouldn't that push countries to cut a lot of trees to then have the highest bidder willing to reduce carbon emissions pay a premium?

You raise a valid point, Brazil may be an interesting test-case for the point you have raised. The new government shows strong interest in cutting down the Amazon (at least partially) for the sake of Agribusiness, Cattle & Logging. Now will they use Amazon and the way the world perceives it as a way to exchange concessions? It remains to be seeing.

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#139

Post by JoshTko »

sideshowb wrote: post #123
wjnc wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an economist I fully agree. It's not the solution but the measure that helps consumers in ranking all possible solutions. Why is flying without kerosine tax? Why do we spend a few k€ on electric car subsidies per MT less emitted. A tax would make things like this transparant. All we need is some party with the clout of the EU or US to get this thing going. There is no opting out trading with us and no opting out f…

> CO2 accounting and taxing will be a massive invitation for corruption, gaming and bad actors That's the problem already. We've had a CO2 price for a long time - but it's meaninglessly low. I can only presume because of lobbying from those with vested interests.

Can't we make fines high and give anyone that reports fraud a cut of penalty?

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#140

Post by 75dvtwin »

I am yet to see an example of corruption-free model converting environment impact reduction (or increase) in to monetary credit or (debit).

"..

To offset their own carbon emissions, European companies have been overpaying China to incinerate a powerful greenhouse gas known as hfc 23.

And in a bizarre twist, those payments have spurred the manufacture of a harmful refrigerant that is being smuggled into the U.S. and used illegally.

…"

https://e360.yale.edu/features/perverse_co2_payments_send_fl...

Post reply on HN