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Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

kirkcenter.org

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Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#131

Post by int_19h »

anigbrowl wrote: post #112
stcredzero wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: Two key identifying marks of dystopia are social regimentation and an inevitable totalitarianism. "Conform or be cast out." --Rush, Subdivisions, Signals, 1982 "Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences." From the article: Next, dystopia is marked by dehumanization How one tweet can ruin your life | Jon Ronson -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAIP6fI0NAI From the article: The abuse…

There's a story in the news today about a Coast Guard lieutenant with extreme political views who was planning to go on an Anders Breivik style murder spree. Your model doesn't seem to include people who have zero interest in dialogue or persuasion and are willing to simply eliminate people they find disagreeable. Regrettably, it's not hard to find people who subscribe to eliminationist ideologies, and having found t…

> At what point do you consider the listening process sufficient for conclusions to be drawn, or any other action to be taken

At the point where you have sufficient evidence to charge them with "conspiracy to commit X", where X is a non-speech crime.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#132

Post by freshhawk »

stcredzero wrote: post #123
freshhawk wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are describing the concept of "social norms" and "taboos" and "shunning" in a particularly convoluted and confused way. You are talking about people being shunned and gossiped about like it is on par with being kidnapped by armed government agents and confined in a cell. Like going to jail or being killed and getting cancelled on twitter are close enough to the same thing that the same philosophical framework app…

You are talking about people being shunned and gossiped about like it is on par with being kidnapped by armed government agents and confined in a cell. So one is bad stuff on the level of violent terrorists and intelligence agencies, and another is bad stuff on the level of mean girls in high school? No disagreement there. Both of those stink. Then, there's bad on the level of groups of people going around in masks,…

Your plan for rational public debate being used to determine social norms instead of standard social animal behaviour is very flawed.

A lot of people are scared or confused by the fact that the internet and globalization has fractured the mainstream media narrative into multiple narratives and exposed the underlying politics (not "politics" as in "the discourse", I mean "politics" as in "the application of power to allocate resources"). But not much has changed materially, you are just exposed to more personal conversations in public spaces than we used to be. It is weird.

What you are actually seeing happen: politically engaged people are ignoring you or just brushing you aside or even telling you to shut or get lost because you don't matter to them politically. This might be an adjustment for you but no one has to answer your questions or convince you to accept the new consensus. If you mattered to them they would, but you got left behind because you don't.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#133

Post by [deleted] »

stcredzero wrote: post #128
panic wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Authoritarianism by definition requires a strong central power. Whatever you're talking about isn't authoritarianism.

Authoritarianism by definition requires a strong central power. This is one of the dishonest absolute tropes which need to be squashed, because it obscures the truth. It's an obfuscation that's as good as a lie. (1) Here's the universal, timeless truth: All power is temporary and contextual. All of history teaches us this. A masked mob dominating the street for a couple of hours clearly has contextual power. The mob…

[deleted]

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#135

Post by ocschwar »

kerbalspacepro wrote: post #41
_bxg1 wrote: post #33

I don't strongly disagree on any particular point, per se, but the fact that the author's thoughts are rooted in a religious worldview felt like it was snuck in there at the end: "Moreover, this world is fallen, so it is by nature flawed...The utopian visions that animate real places...seek to remake humanity and society in someone’s image—and that is not the image of the Creator." For further context, the website it…

>this world is fallen Makes the entire article essentially meaningless. How can I trust somebody with such a bizarre and unconnected worldview?

It's just a succinct way of saying the same thing a certain secular philosopher once said: "out of the crooked timber of humanity, nothing straight has ever been made."

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#136

Post by ghthor »

stale2002 wrote: post #126
anigbrowl wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a story in the news today about a Coast Guard lieutenant with extreme political views who was planning to go on an Anders Breivik style murder spree. Your model doesn't seem to include people who have zero interest in dialogue or persuasion and are willing to simply eliminate people they find disagreeable. Regrettably, it's not hard to find people who subscribe to eliminationist ideologies, and having found t…

It is pretty simple, actually. All you have to do is judge people on their actions, and let them say (but not act on) whatever they want. So as long as someone is merely saying words on the internet, or whatever, then that's fine. And if instead, this person is stockpiling illegal weapons, well that's what the police are for.

It's even easier then that. Dont judge anyone, for I am you and you are me. I am my beloved and my beloved is I. We are are neither aleft or alright, we are all one and the same. What is inside yourself is what you will see in the world. Love yourself, for within yourself is Elohim.

All things serve the beam, for all things are Elohim.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#137

Post by Infernal »

int_19h wrote: post #131
anigbrowl wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a story in the news today about a Coast Guard lieutenant with extreme political views who was planning to go on an Anders Breivik style murder spree. Your model doesn't seem to include people who have zero interest in dialogue or persuasion and are willing to simply eliminate people they find disagreeable. Regrettably, it's not hard to find people who subscribe to eliminationist ideologies, and having found t…

> At what point do you consider the listening process sufficient for conclusions to be drawn, or any other action to be taken At the point where you have sufficient evidence to charge them with "conspiracy to commit X", where X is a non-speech crime.

I regret that I have but one upvote to give.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#138

Post by alacombe »

0x262d wrote: post #37
Buldak wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's hard not to think that the subtext here is a kind of quietism in service to the status quo.

the only purpose of this article is to shut off the possibility of an alternative to the status quo.

though, what are the proof that "progressivism" is actually "progress" ?

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#139

Post by Aeolun »

ghthor wrote: post #136
stale2002 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is pretty simple, actually. All you have to do is judge people on their actions, and let them say (but not act on) whatever they want. So as long as someone is merely saying words on the internet, or whatever, then that's fine. And if instead, this person is stockpiling illegal weapons, well that's what the police are for.

It's even easier then that. Dont judge anyone, for I am you and you are me. I am my beloved and my beloved is I. We are are neither aleft or alright, we are all one and the same. What is inside yourself is what you will see in the world. Love yourself, for within yourself is Elohim. All things serve the beam, for all things are Elohim.

I don’t think I’ve grokked that yet.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#140

Post by stcredzero »

freshhawk wrote: post #132
stcredzero wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are talking about people being shunned and gossiped about like it is on par with being kidnapped by armed government agents and confined in a cell. So one is bad stuff on the level of violent terrorists and intelligence agencies, and another is bad stuff on the level of mean girls in high school? No disagreement there. Both of those stink. Then, there's bad on the level of groups of people going around in masks,…

Your plan for rational public debate being used to determine social norms instead of standard social animal behaviour is very flawed. A lot of people are scared or confused by the fact that the internet and globalization has fractured the mainstream media narrative into multiple narratives and exposed the underlying politics (not "politics" as in "the discourse", I mean "politics" as in "the application of power to a…

But not much has changed materially, you are just exposed to more personal conversations in public spaces than we used to be. It is weird.

It is less public conversation, and more "shut up and submit!"

What you are actually seeing happen: politically engaged people are ignoring you or just brushing you aside or even telling you to shut or get lost because you don't matter to them politically.

This is the authoritarian telling the supposed "inferiors" to submit.

This might be an adjustment for you but no one has to answer your questions or convince you to accept the new consensus. If you mattered to them they would, but you got left behind because you don't.

Spoken like any oppressor would have put it. "Just submit and accept. You don't matter, and there's nothing you can do about it." No answering questions on matters of principle. No curiosity about the other side. Just lay back and take it. It's exactly the behavior of the people who are on the "power" side of "speaking truth to power." The long arc of history bends towards justice. In the end, principles will win out over the temporary contextual power of "social consensus." It's what got us here to the most free and prosperous multicultural civilization in all of history in the first place.

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