Why We Dominate the Earth • Hacker News Board

Re: Why We Dominate the Earth

#131

Post by yesenadam » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 2:11 PM UTC

dwd wrote: post #124

lordnacho wrote: post #2

> Surprisingly, it’s not our shared language or even our ability to dominate other species that defines us but rather, our shared fictions. I read his book where he talks about this. It makes some sense: you can operate at varied scales if you have shared fictions. When you meet a complete stranger, you're both members of the human race, sharing a desire for a better future. Meet a fellow countryman, and there are so…

I find the term "shared fiction" just doesn't convey it adequately, at least in English. Fiction is a loaded word that says "not real" where maybe shared truths, shared beliefs (in the sense of the Greek: hupostasis rather than pisteuo) would be better. We can conceptualise and communicate about thing that are immaterial like trust, honor and promises.

Well, it's shorter than "wampeters, foma & granfalloons" -

A "wampeter" is an object around which the lives of many otherwise unrelated people may revolve. The Holy Grail would be a case in point. "Foma" are harmless untruths, intended to comfort simple souls. An example: "Prosperity is just around the corner." A "granfalloon" is a proud and meaningless association of human beings. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr, Wampeters, Foma & Granfalloons

Re: Why We Dominate the Earth

#132

Post by joshuaheard » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:32 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #113

joshuaheard wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was definitely the most innovative episode. My favorite was the first Borg episode where they finally met someone they couldn't defeat that wanted to destroy them. OP: an example of shared fiction he uses in the book is the law. The law is a fiction in the sense that it is not a physical object, but a group of shared concepts that allows society to be built to a higher order. "Sapiens" is a great read.

> It was definitely the most innovative episode. How so? I always hated that episode because it's a straightforward story of developing communications through a language barrier, except that Star Trek is very clear that language barriers don't exist. So it just ends up being an incoherent plot hole. But the concept of a language barrier isn't exactly new.

Well, I don't think a language barrier is something that doesn't exist in the ST universe. They have the universal translator, and I only remember a couple of episodes where it didn't work. Certainly they ran into completely different life forms, such as silicate based and energy based where presumably communication would be a challenge.

This episode explored the language barrier as the other language was referentially based and unlike our own language. It was difficult for Picard to learn. To make that the basis of an episode was unique, I thought.

My other favorite episode was where Picard got shocked by a probe and lived an entire life in only a few minutes. The probe was a device to teach others about a lost culture.

Re: Why We Dominate the Earth

#133

Post by mikelyons » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 5:26 PM UTC

mikelyons wrote: post #56

raincom wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Philosophy of Mathematics deals with your question: whether numbers or sets exist? Some say they don't exist in our world, but exist in a Mathematical world (Platonism).

We exist inside absolute infinity. Reality is not physical. math is just a subset of the infinite number of dimensions in the godhead we inhabit.

Downvoted by people locked into the naive-realist paradigm.

Re: Why We Dominate the Earth

#134

Post by thaumasiotes » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 8:12 PM UTC

joshuaheard wrote: post #132

thaumasiotes wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It was definitely the most innovative episode. How so? I always hated that episode because it's a straightforward story of developing communications through a language barrier, except that Star Trek is very clear that language barriers don't exist. So it just ends up being an incoherent plot hole. But the concept of a language barrier isn't exactly new.

Well, I don't think a language barrier is something that doesn't exist in the ST universe. They have the universal translator, and I only remember a couple of episodes where it didn't work. Certainly they ran into completely different life forms, such as silicate based and energy based where presumably communication would be a challenge. This episode explored the language barrier as the other language was referential…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Inner_Light_(Star_Trek:_Th...

But Darmok doesn't work. To say "the other language is referentially based" is conceptually incoherent. What you're really saying is that "Shaka, when the walls fell" is a very long word for "sad". If the Tamarians really don't speak except in these references, then they aren't references -- they have no internal structure and no meaning other than the surface one. The universal translator wouldn't have them saying "Shaka, when the walls fell." or "Temba, his arms wide.", it would have them saying "Sad." or "Welcome.". That's what a word is.

If the Tamarians can understand a language that isn't just "references", for example because they have to teach their children to speak, then the events of the episode are nonsense, because Picard is speaking perfectly intelligibly.

Re: Why We Dominate the Earth

#135

Post by m0skit0 » Mon, Jan 28, 2019, 10:52 AM UTC

rafiki6 wrote: post #92

m0skit0 wrote: post #89

Define "dominate". IMHO bacteria dominate the Earth, but of course, they don't know. They don't even need to know to dominate.

I'd argue that domination requires agency. We want to dominate the earth and are doing it. Bacteria maybe more prevalent, but they haven't wiped us out yet. We on the other hand have wiped out several strains of bacteria.

All living beings want to dominate, it's genetics: if you dominate you can pass down your genes easier.

We definitely came close to being wiped out by bacteria. Several times. And no, we don't have more human "strains".

Bacteria totally dominated us before antibiotics, and this hard conquered defense wall is already evaporating, and fast.