Does this fake news?
Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko
131–140 of 266 posts
Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
No political strings attached? You mean, they just takeover and don't need political strings? They benefit far more, their own workers do 80% of the work and nothing is helping the local economy. The loans also have to be paid back to China ( because they lend the money). This is a very good way to create growth on the shoulder of others.
Better infrastructure doesn't help the local economy?
Not so much if the local economy is not developed enough to be able to utilize it.
Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
While we can debate the relative merits and demerits of the CFA, it is still quite very strange and quite frankly colonial that the arrangement continues.And there have been coups in the past in the West African subregion which call into doubt this argument that Francophone African states have much sovereignty to change the situation. Furthermore, regardless of the relative merits and demerits of the monetary zone, i…
> While we can debate the relative merits and demerits of the CFA, it is still quite very strange and quite frankly colonial that the arrangement continues. It continues because it's becoming an African euro-zone, having the same currency is invaluable. Especially that the African currencies don't have a reputation for stability. It's not a coincidence Mali & Guinea left and then came back in. > Lastly, one just has…
West Africa, the region with the most greatest number of Francophone states and influence is largely the poorest African region(some like to argue Central Africa, but people debate its composition and shape more readily than West Africa). My experiences in the region often reveal great resentment with the nature of French involvement within their political economy. Now you may disagree with that and think its all hunky dory in those countries, but for me its quite strange as a Ghanaian American to see, and we often feel sorry for them. We feel especially sorry for Togo, our bordering country next door which has lived under a family dynasty for 51 years, a dynasty overtly supported by France.
And we definitely felt sorry for Ivory Coast when French special forces busted into their presidential palace to resolve a domestic electoral dispute. But hey CFA Franc, stability and all that, yeah!
Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko
#134West African American here (Ghanaian - American). This article actually isn't true, while the Kenyan Chinese pact that led to the construction of the Nairobi - Mombasa Port does have clauses related to penalties around lack of payment, there has been no actual announcement or any signs of China declaring possession of the Mombasa Port. In fact, the big issue in Mombasa right now is actually revolving around a Kenyan…
> Speaking furthermore, I do find it highly concerning just how much of an echo chamber this place is in regards to this notion of "Chinese colonialism" and Chinese "debt - traps". Most African countries still owe far more to the IMF/World Bank than they due to China.
I don't think that the amount of debt and the amount of countries in debt is a correct measure of influence that the IMF/WB or China has in the region. The IMF offers highly concessional loans in relatively moderate amounts with many strings attached. These 'neo-liberal' strings [1], which include mandatory monetary reforms and privatization could indeed be considered 'colonial', and their effectiveness can be doubted (or even seen as destructive), but they do seem to have a semblance of responsible debt management in their intentions (but perhaps not in their outcome).
China on the other hand, itself being on the brink of a major debt crisis, is handing out seemingly no-strings-attached YOLO-money, especially to debt-vulnerable countries that previously had large parts of their IMF/WB debts forgiven [2]. In some cases, especially in infrastructure projects, China requires the hiring of Chinese labor and further redirects money because there is a huge technology gap between local and Chinese companies.
These are no concessional loans, and China must know that (some of) these countries are inevitably going to default with major losses of land, infrastructure and natural resources as a consequence, to China's gain. It perhaps is too early to tell, but these measures seem far more 'colonial' to me in intent than the loan programs of the IMF/WB in the last 50 years.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_adjustment
[2] https://www.cgdev.org/blog/yes-chinas-lending-problem-debt-v...
Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think when compared with Chinese imperialism, people will miss the US
I think people are overstating the chinese capacity to run a world-class imperialist project. China still has a long way to go to making their own country functional before they can do this kind of outreach
China does not need to be functional to abuse other countries.
Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko
#136I know nothing about it, but comments to that article (in Google Cache) seems to view the article as alarmist: for example, say that the grace period is until 2023, so we are talking years, not weeks before something happens. No idea if it is true or not, more info/references would be great. Can someone give more insight?
I'm an African myself, but while Chinese model is different from the aid model we are familiar with, it's helping solve so many problems that we had no alternatives for. China is willing to come in with loans without political strings attached. Yes, there are collaterals but Africa has its own negotiators too, and we know the deal we get is much better than any other country or institution would be willing to give.
To further butress DanielBMarkham's excellent comment below, here is a HN discussion [0] from early this year where China gave Africa a no strings attached helping hand that turned out to be "Greek gift" where they snoop on all communications.
Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think when compared with Chinese imperialism, people will miss the US
> I think when compared with Chinese imperialism, people will miss the US Could you clarify which people you are thinking of and your specific meaning of what they would miss? I'm thinking about those historical track record. I'm thinking of those millions of Vietnamese and Cambodians whose lives were ended. I wonder about the millions more whose futures were ruined. I'm thinking about those millions of Iranians trap…
In several of those the US split the bill with Russia, don't forget about that.
While US's action in Iran had a strong effect, I'd say the blame doesn't last forever (return of sanctions notwithstanding)
Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
How can this be downvoted? Did Argentina get trapped in debt with IMF because a meteor hit Buenos Aires? Did a tsunami hit Athens? These countries burned through their reserves with no responsibility at all, reserves which were hard earned money from the population, and people demonize the IMF alone?
It has become popular on the left to blame the IMF for a country’s problems, when the IMF is the last resort for a country that has shot itself in the foot. Some people can’t handle reality when it conflicts with their fantasy.
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Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
No one takes money from the IMF unless they are so screwed that they have no other options. The reason they have no one willing to lend to them is that their government has enacted policies that destroyed their economy and the IMF requires concrete changes to get them back on the right track. The alternative to taking an IMF loan is so bad (collapse of country) that they take it. It isn’t the IMF’s fault, it’s what h…
How can this be downvoted? Did Argentina get trapped in debt with IMF because a meteor hit Buenos Aires? Did a tsunami hit Athens? These countries burned through their reserves with no responsibility at all, reserves which were hard earned money from the population, and people demonize the IMF alone?
people demonize the IMF alone?
Nobody demonizes the IMF alone, there's plenty of internal criticism inside the countries "helped" by the IMF.
Re: Chinese may take over Mombasa port: Ouko
#140West African American here (Ghanaian - American). This article actually isn't true, while the Kenyan Chinese pact that led to the construction of the Nairobi - Mombasa Port does have clauses related to penalties around lack of payment, there has been no actual announcement or any signs of China declaring possession of the Mombasa Port. In fact, the big issue in Mombasa right now is actually revolving around a Kenyan…
Something tells me this commenter is affiliated with the Chinese government.
Is something evidence or an annoyance that someone has an opinion that does not agree with yours?