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Developer on Call

henrikwarne.com

131–140 of 246 posts

Re: Developer on Call

#131

I work at a company where On Call has become a monster. Week on, week off, no extra pay. 1) you get calls / emails from the clients. Anything from a P1 everything is on fire incident down to "we've seen some random SQL agent job has failed, drop what you are doing and give us an RCA now" 2) you get automated alerts via systems you dont own, like SQL Sentry, where someone somewhere years ago put in an alert that says…

That's poor management. IMO, you should find another job and write a glassdoor review. I've stayed away from a few similar situations due to glassdoor reviews.

I can't muster up any disagreement. Eventually, I'll get there, but I've learned the hard way that moving from Support to Dev is IMO more difficult than moving from college student to Dev.

Anecdata: there is sometimes a stigma from Dev to Support, the latter is lesser in programming skills than the former, so they "shouldn't" be allowed to cross over. If I could have told my past self not to take the support college job 'for the experience', I'd probably have gotten actual programming job offers out of school rather than an analyst role.

But thanks for the advice - I'll dig out of the hole sooner rather than later hopefully!

Re: Developer on Call

#132
post #68

On my last job somebody told my it's my turn for the support phone. In our case text messages if web based products are down. I never heard of it before, not during my interview or first month, never. I didn't know how to react and said sure, here's my number. After waking up twice during the night I decided to mute my phone completly from 10pm to 7am. Sometimes I woke up and had 50 messages and would try to solve th…

My contract with a company that had on call read somewhere along the lines of 9 to 5 are the core working times and all work necessary outside these times, including Saturday and Sunday, is already remunerated in the base salary. In this case I was being paid for it and I only heard about it in the first week after starting. I asked "how often do I have to work on weekends", but not "will i be on call" in the contrac…

Disclaimer: IANAL

" all work necessary outside these times, including Saturday and Sunday, is already remunerated in the base salary."

That's actually not enforceable in most US states. Typically a base salary cannot cover work which is outside normal business hours if it's a consistent expectation that work will be performed outside normal business hours. Contracts are enforceable because both parties are given "due consideration", so that the terms are intended to be mutually beneficial. As written, what you described is basically saying "Do more work, do it outside typically expected times to perform work, and you're not getting anything more for doing this."

As an example of how this works, in a situation in which you will work consistently outside normal business hours but are a salaried employee, such as a manager supervising an overnight crew at a manufacturing facility, you will be awarded "Shift Differential Pay", which is a percentage or dollar amount differential above and beyond normal pay for someone of your position at the company as "due consideration" for agreeing to work outside normal business hours. This would be true for your overnight crew on the line as well, except that it's included in their hourly.

Being salaried does not automatically mean you are a slave to the company and their whims, and being overtime exempt does not mean you can be asked to consistently work outside normal business hours week after week without any additional compensation. Overtime is an occasional action, if you are being asked to work outside normal business hours as a standard operating practice, that's something else entirely.

Re: Developer on Call

#133

1. for every week of oncall a developer should get 1 day off. 2. If developer had to work nights, he should be compensation with additional days off. 3. no payment would reduce the stress so we should not ask for payment compensation. 4. We as developers have let this on us too easily, to eliminate stress devs must form a group and do not sign contracts which do not provide automatic day off for oncall.

I could see there potentially being problems in an at-will position where engineers aren't actually able to take those days off when they want without hurting their career.

it should be an automatic must take day off after finished an oncall duty, just like every workweek ends with resting days, oncall which is 24/7 of low-stress should end with resting time.

Re: Developer on Call

#134
It's interesting that both the article and many comments take as a base assumption that on-call should exist and then go into how it should be compensated or structured.

I would argue that on-call shouldn't exist at all. If a company wants a system to be supported 24/7 it should have three eight hour shifts. Of course companies balk at this, saying it's too expensive, but if their product isn't worth paying extra for then perhaps it's also not worth being up 24/7.

This is the sort of thing that should be enforced by law or by a strong union contract because businesses can't be trusted to act in their employees' best interests.

Re: Developer on Call

#135
from google SRE workbook:

"Night shifts have detrimental effects on people’s health [Dur05], and a multi-site "follow the sun" rotation allows teams to avoid night shifts altogether."

"For each on-call shift, an engineer should have sufficient time to deal with any incidents and follow-up activities such as writing postmortems [Loo10]."

"Google offers time-off-in-lieu or straight cash compensation"

Re: Developer on Call

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Division of labor is a thing. I'm good at transforming customer interactions into requirements and then transforming requirements into working code. I'm not good with dealing with issues with a deployed product while I should be busy living my life.

So push the burden onto somebody else? Why aren't they allowed to "be busying living [their] life"?

They should be free to live their life. If it turns out that the company doesn't actually have enough money to hire enough people to perform all of the duties that it needs to continue to exist, then that company should cease to exist. Which is desirable over the alternative of having rich company owners externalize their failure to run their company adequately by stealing the lives of employees who don't have the ability to say no to an unethical violation of their right to live their life.

Re: Developer on Call

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enough to get me to sign up straight out of school, but not enough to keep me there forever. Their pay scale is pretty generous out of the gate, but it's also pretty flat. The longer you stay, the worse off you are. Attrition in my cohort was about 40% per year.

I'd imagine that for the engineers, that's not good.

It wasn't good at that factory, to be sure. I'd estimate that engineers were costing the company money on balance for the first year and a half of their employment -- there was a lot to learn about the process, how the factory ran, working with other departments, and so forth. Bad engineering decisions were very expensive. So when you have a pool of engineers who are mostly too inexperienced to make good decisions, a lot of bad decisions get made. Given the attrition rate, about 50% of engineers were running around making bad decisions, or no decisions at all, at any given time.

Re: Developer on Call

#138

Kayak.com co-founder Paul English on this topic (2010): "The engineers and I handle customer support. When I tell people that, they look at me like I'm smoking crack. They say, "Why would you pay an engineer $150,000 to answer phones when you could pay someone in Arizona $8 an hour?" If you make the engineers answer e-mails and phone calls from the customers, the second or third time they get the same question, they'…

I agree (conservatively). I don't like taking customer calls, and doing it a lot seems like it could waste valuable time, but I think it is important for engineers to at least occasionally interact with customers so that they understand what this darn piece of software is _actually_ supposed to do. We can sometimes get caught up in feeling like we know what it is supposed to do and implement it, only to find out (or even worse not find out) that people use it entirely differently.

The other thing is that you get familiar with the "type" of problems that arise. This helps you communicate with customer support when they call, or know what questions to ask to get to their issues.

I've had customer support complain about an issue or feature request they have never told us about but have had pain points and customer requests for months. It is always a trivial change. Improving communication between customer support staff developers is hugely valuable however it happens.

Re: Developer on Call

#139
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds so nice in theory. All those pesky developers refusing to fix their horrible code. While in reality at least in my experience the developer would be very much happy to fix the code, it's just that you don't get any time to do that. It's only new features and new products.

It's actually more complex than that, even. I'm speaking from being an engineer for some time (~13 years) and a product manager now. The issue is that Customer A, B, C, D, and E want Feature A to behave in one way, and Customer N, M, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V want Feature A to behave in another way, and those two ways are mutually exclusive insofar as it can't merely be configurable, since Features B-F rely on Feature A…

That's a great description of the subtleties of product development, especially within a small team. Many books and articles make it seem like a simple procedure, but actually you often face decisions which will leave some people unhappy, no matter what you decide.

Re: Developer on Call

#140
post #115

There's a lot of words, in the article and the comments, about being compensated for on-call time. The software field seems very anti-union, for reasons that I don't entirely understand. Protecting your time is one feature that unions offer. Want to be paid for every hour you're on call? Get the union to put it in their rules for employers. The alternative we have now is that each developer is responsible for negotia…

> The software field seems very anti-union, for reasons that I don't entirely understand.

A few ideas, not in any specific order:

It would kill start-ups, wouldn't it? If you have to obey union rules, you can't have one person who's the DBA and the project lead and the primary programmer and and and because those are all different jobs and require different union employees. Great if you're Microsoft and can afford it, but otherwise...

What would it do to Open Source and Free Software? Can it be Union-Certified if it's made by people who aren't all being paid? If a company has to Look For The Union Label, as the song goes, is it going to be allowed to use software which comes from outside the corporate sphere?

Related to the above, what would happen to hobbyist programming? Would it be regulated out of existence entirely, or merely relegated to people writing software nobody's allowed to use because it was made off-the-clock?

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