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Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

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Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#131

Post by pjc50 »

basurihn wrote: post #123
pjc50 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It takes more to be labelled fringe and justify censorship for left-leaning speech, than it takes for right-leaning speech. That's because there's more harm-promoting speech, and more incoherent lies, from the right? Saying there should be equal treatment of left and right speech regardless of the content is nonsense.

I come from a very right-leaning area. I was quite surprised to find that everyone I knew supported the daily killing and torture of Jews... because that is what Nazis do, right? I was also quite surprised to hear that my community wants to take away rights from black people, which I heard in a radio ad not so long ago. The left has its equal share of hobgoblins.

> I was also quite surprised to hear that my community wants to take away rights from black people, which I heard in a radio ad not so long ago

Have you checked this? What's their opinion on, for example, Black Lives matter?

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#132

Post by tomjen3 »

oliwarner wrote: post #130
noetic_techy wrote: post #38

Oh please. The headline might as well have been: We need to protect people from information and ideas we don't agree with. Freedom of speech is not just about speech, its about ideas. Nobody should ever be deemed the arbiter of truth. Not Facebook, not the government, not anyone. Decentralize the social networks. Let everyone speak, even the bad people. Realize that you actually make the problem worse by suppressing…

Nah. This conflagratory term "fake news" deliberately muddles "things that aren't very important" with "lies told by officials". I think the second needs to be a condition of public office. You deliberately lie, or show a pattern of not giving a shit about the truth, pack your bags and get a private sector job. Conversely and perversely, the varied institutions of public office seem to protect politicians' speech. Th…

But who would be the arbitraitor who decides when you have lied so much you have to leave?

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#133

Post by tomjen3 »

codetwelve wrote: post #110
noetic_techy wrote: post #38

Oh please. The headline might as well have been: We need to protect people from information and ideas we don't agree with. Freedom of speech is not just about speech, its about ideas. Nobody should ever be deemed the arbiter of truth. Not Facebook, not the government, not anyone. Decentralize the social networks. Let everyone speak, even the bad people. Realize that you actually make the problem worse by suppressing…

In Canada there is a law where you can't lie on the news. It's worked pretty well and I can at least stand the news programs we have. I also think you're a bit too naive. Without proper governance look at what is happening in america. America from the outside believes climate change is a hoax because republicans are bought. No one is willing to go against the establishment and make laws to stop this when they're clea…

Who gets to determine if you lie? What constitutes a lie? Can I say that the holocaust never happened, if that is what I actually believe? How about global warming.

Besides it only takes a marginally more more skilled speaker to get the same result and say nothing at all that can be stated as a direct lie.

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#134

Post by platz »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #128
platz wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm less sure of this, but although correctness may not be a goal but I think in jockeying for position they are expressing an understanding of what will hurt or help them. I'm not sure I'm ready to say it is for position alone they are fighting for in the truest postmodern sense (sorry for using that word). I would like to think values and cultures have actual meaning instead of being completely content-free; and ev…

Maybe I'm a bit too cynical about this. I'm not ready to state that values in public discourse are always completely content-free. But they also aren't treated as content-full either. Some reasons I observed: 1) Some people have a very simplistic view of their values. "More of value $V good, less value $V bad. $controversial-option-X increases $V, therefore good." They do not think through it enough to realize when t…

Great points

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#135

Post by tomjen3 »

DubiousPusher wrote: post #107
noetic_techy wrote: post #38

Oh please. The headline might as well have been: We need to protect people from information and ideas we don't agree with. Freedom of speech is not just about speech, its about ideas. Nobody should ever be deemed the arbiter of truth. Not Facebook, not the government, not anyone. Decentralize the social networks. Let everyone speak, even the bad people. Realize that you actually make the problem worse by suppressing…

> Realize that you actually make the problem worse by suppressing information I'm not taking a position on your larger post but this is a bit of a cliche I'd politely suggest you stop using. There are numerous historical examples of the successful suppression of information and the impact of said suppression frequently helps the suppressor in exactly the way they intend.

Unless those are less than about 20 years old, I will argue that they no longer apply. With the internet you simply cannot censor information they way you used to be able to do.

With the internet you can't have an Albigensian genocide.

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#136

Post by pjc50 »

tomjen3 wrote: post #135
DubiousPusher wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Realize that you actually make the problem worse by suppressing information I'm not taking a position on your larger post but this is a bit of a cliche I'd politely suggest you stop using. There are numerous historical examples of the successful suppression of information and the impact of said suppression frequently helps the suppressor in exactly the way they intend.

Unless those are less than about 20 years old, I will argue that they no longer apply. With the internet you simply cannot censor information they way you used to be able to do. With the internet you can't have an Albigensian genocide.

No, you have a Rohingya genocide instead.

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#137

Post by reitanqild »

jasonlotito wrote: post #109
noetic_techy wrote: post #38

Oh please. The headline might as well have been: We need to protect people from information and ideas we don't agree with. Freedom of speech is not just about speech, its about ideas. Nobody should ever be deemed the arbiter of truth. Not Facebook, not the government, not anyone. Decentralize the social networks. Let everyone speak, even the bad people. Realize that you actually make the problem worse by suppressing…

> Nobody should ever be deemed the arbiter of truth. Except for you and your comment, right?

GP didn't say that.

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#138

Post by ThomPete »

zzzcpan wrote: post #91
ThomPete wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there is a specific education you can take that will shield you from influence or propaganda. In my experience, it's about something else. Something more fundamental.

Currently it's part of political science / politology mixed with psychology. It could change your worldview so much that it would completely destroy any trust in governments, media, political systems. Which is actually a necessary first step in order to understand how these things work. I guess this is the fundamental thing you are talking about. Once you get there, you can start learning more in depth about these th…

"You will never be able to trust any government again." which is itself prone to lead to you accepting misinformation.

That's the point though. You can't escape these things.

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#139

Post by tomjen3 »

pjc50 wrote: post #136
tomjen3 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless those are less than about 20 years old, I will argue that they no longer apply. With the internet you simply cannot censor information they way you used to be able to do. With the internet you can't have an Albigensian genocide.

No, you have a Rohingya genocide instead.

I never said you couldn't have a genocide, just that you couldn't have a genocide whoes goal was to remove from the face of the planet some knowledge.

The combined cultural knowledge of every tribe in the world would fit on one hard drive.

Re: Stamos says the US must ‘come together to protect’ democracy from misinformation

#140

Post by swsieber »

lustysocietyorg wrote: post #120
swsieber wrote: post #49

Fake news is a symtpom, not a cause. To fight fake news, we'd have to go to the sources (note: this is mostly off the top of my head): * Fight partisanship/polarization. Not sure how to do this. But taking a big step back and trying to discuss things without labels would be a good start. And who knows... maybe a different voting system to encourage more parties to exist? There's a lot to do here. * Fight corruption.…

> To fight fake news, we'd have to go to the sources True. But many people do not check sources and do not want sources. The more sources you link, the more likely your message is ignored or downvoted or considered spam. Some comment section tools even refuse posts with too many links. The EU fights against sources. Macron vows to tighten media control because 'fake news threatens democracy' https://www.rt.com/news/4…

It's not the money that makes bad reporting - its the direct tying of eyeballs to monetary reward. That incentivizes creating of very clickbaity, meme-like reporting.
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