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“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

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Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#131
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moving voting day from a Tuesday to a Sunday would also make a big difference. There are many people who have have informed opinions but can't afford to take off work (write-up for being late to work/take off early, lost income, transport issues). Also that would avoid removing a school day since most public schools are used for polling. Another option would be to switch to make mail-in ballots only.

how do you validate mail in ballots? I am more worried about votes where we have to verify an absent voter simply because the chance of fraud increases. Fraud not only in not knowing if it is the actual voter but also because we cannot insure their vote was not forced. my state had early voting for weeks so there really isn't a "voting day" issue here. (Georgia). Now I have not looked but how many other states offer…

Oregon's had voting by mail exclusively, and, it _automatically_ registers voters in a number of places, so unless you are fully off the grid, you're pretty much gonna get a ballot. Consequently, Oregon has had consistently higher turnouts in most elections.

Each vote gets the signature reviewed by a person, one at a time. I actually had my ballot put on hold this year because the signature wasn't quite close enough - likely, since I probably just flippantly scribbled something on the package. They quickly mailed out another registration form where I basically re-signed the ballot for additional information.

Ballots can be dropped off into several boxes, that don't even go through the postal service.

Additionally, most counties have phone and email notifications for you to track your vote. That's how I got my notification, 2 days after mailing it in, that my ballot was under review.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#132

Voting is a solved problem: fill in some box on paper. What is automating it ever going to solve?

Increasing participation? I won't drive out of my way and queue somewhere to vote. Sure, many people think the solution to this is shaming me for not caring enough about democracy, but it is obviously not working. If it were easy and safe to vote from my phone, I may be more inclined to vote.

Would you be more inclined to educate yourself on the candidates and the issues on the ballot? If increasing voter participation is just about having more ignorant voters, or stuffing the ballot box with people from given demographics, then quite frankly, I am not in favor of it. I wouldn't qualify myself to be sufficiently educated to really vote on any of the issues I voted on yesterday, but hey, I did my civic duty and got my sticker. I don't have the foggiest idea what the difference between the two candidates for county clerk is, or what the material results of amending one sentence in the state constitution with what reads to me as different synonyms will be...

I don't think that is a solvable problem.

And I would be terrified of throwing smartphones into the mix, because they are just terrible (I think the iPhone has made the world a worse place, on balance...). Any API endpoint that is setup to handle the traffic is going to be attacked, and it is going to be broken; people are going to be on shitty LTE connections, and their votes aren't going to go through. The data is not going to be properly anonymized. Software is terrible, and it is going to have bugs and fuckups and gaping holes that would be horribly exposed under the stress and scale of a real election.

Voting is basically a solved problem, and I don't see that piling complexity on top of it is a worthwhile endeavor. You go to your polling place, you grab the sheet of paper, you fill in the bubbles with the sharpie, you drop it in the slot. There are some simple, low-tech ways to improve things if you want; make voting day a national holiday, open more polling places, hire more people to staff them. None of that requires a boondoggle IT project.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#133
post #12

If we think that not enough people are voting, the way to solve this is NOT through get-out-the-vote efforts, voter registration drives, and tools like this to make it easier to cast a vote. These are not the bottleneck. Voting may be a duty, but it's one that carries a lot of responsibility. Getting ignorant people to cast poorly-informed votes does not help our society. And I think that people realize this. So when…

Moving voting day from a Tuesday to a Sunday would also make a big difference. There are many people who have have informed opinions but can't afford to take off work (write-up for being late to work/take off early, lost income, transport issues). Also that would avoid removing a school day since most public schools are used for polling. Another option would be to switch to make mail-in ballots only.

Why do I even need to elect a Congressman/woman to make decisions for me? Just let me do it directly now that the technology is here. We should vote on issues in real time, or within a week or month-long window.

It would incentivize people with time and interest to be more involved, and get rid of that pesky agency problem.

At the very least we can marginalize the role of politicians and perhaps be less disappointed in them.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#134
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Getting ignorant people to cast poorly-informed votes does not help our society. EDIT: "Wow" Retracted and language changes - agree that ignorance is something to be fought, but it's a tough determination when it comes to voting. How are you determining a voter is ignorant? What if someone is informed but disagrees with you? Like so many things, we need both, and I don't think it is an either/or. It should be easie…

> Wow. What if someone is informed but disagrees with you? OP didn't say anything about agreeing with their positions. I honestly don't see what your "wow" is about - do you believe that it would be helpful to society to have poorly-informed people casting votes?

No - I believe everyone should try to educate themselves as much as possible about what they are voting on.

What I "heard" in the original statement is something implied - something deeper (my hearing may be wrong) To say "we don't need more ignorant uninformed votes" when the only thing you know about a voter is who / what they voted for (not the _why_), while also saying there is a way to vote that will "help our society", then you are implicitly judging the voter as ignorant based on your thought of the "informed" vote. If they vote because they like their hair and that is what matters to the voter, that's the voter's choice.

The comment in my opinion went deeper than "we should better inform voters" and into judgment territory based on my reading. If that was a bad read, then I've wasted my characters and your time and for that I apologize!

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#135
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...how does the user know his vote is valid and added to the tally? Changing a vote to be for another candidate is not the only way to influence an election; you could have votes for the 'wrong' candidate be thrown out as invalid, too.

> ...how does the user know his vote is valid and added to the tally? I could say the same thing currently - how do you know that vote you placed on a voting machine actually counted? > you could have votes for the 'wrong' candidate be thrown out as invalid, too. That's why you have codes that have no public mapping to candidates as I already suggested - I even suggested a primitive way to do so.

> I could say the same thing currently - how do you know that vote you placed on a voting machine actually counted?

Which is a reason for introducing an even less secure system how? Yes, voting computers are a huge security problem. Which is why they should be banned.

> That's why you have codes that have no public mapping to candidates as I already suggested - I even suggested a primitive way to do so.

As I mentioned above: Thinking of securing an election like securing a bank is doing things completely wrong. "The public" is not the primary attack vector you have to defend against. "The public" is who is supposed to have the power in an election. Entrenched powers is what you have to defend against.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#136
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moving voting day from a Tuesday to a Sunday would also make a big difference. There are many people who have have informed opinions but can't afford to take off work (write-up for being late to work/take off early, lost income, transport issues). Also that would avoid removing a school day since most public schools are used for polling. Another option would be to switch to make mail-in ballots only.

I'm in favor of ditching Columbus day and replacing it with November 6th as a national holiday for that reason.

I've never once worked a job where we got Columbus day off.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#137
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moving voting day from a Tuesday to a Sunday would also make a big difference. There are many people who have have informed opinions but can't afford to take off work (write-up for being late to work/take off early, lost income, transport issues). Also that would avoid removing a school day since most public schools are used for polling. Another option would be to switch to make mail-in ballots only.

Why do I even need to elect a Congressman/woman to make decisions for me? Just let me do it directly now that the technology is here. We should vote on issues in real time, or within a week or month-long window. It would incentivize people with time and interest to be more involved, and get rid of that pesky agency problem. At the very least we can marginalize the role of politicians and perhaps be less disappointed…

Jesus no. Even full time politicians don't have the time to read all the bills they vote on. You really don't want to reduce complex legislation to single sentence statements that casuals can vote on in between checking their Facebook feeds. See Brexit for an example how that would turn out.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#138

As an Estonian who has voted online and via mobile ID for years, couldn't imagine going to vote in a physical location, using pen and paper.

What is your attitude towards significant percentage of population loses their freedom to cast vote independently (often women).

Is coercion or vote buying acceptable trade off for mild inconvenience?

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#139

No offence to Americans reading, but speaking as an outsider, it seems to me that voting in the US is fucked up in so many ways that need to be fixed first before starting on "smartphone based voting". I saw this short twitter thread listing some of problems that are especially apparent from a foreign perspective: https://twitter.com/MackieJonathan/status/105996240724471808...

That's a pretty good list. (Copypasta below.) I can only think of a few omissions (eg poll taxes, destroying all the evidence asap).

No one considers the USA's elections fair, transparent, accountable. Why most foreign election observers don't even bother.

And yet, American exceptionalism. Point out the emperor has no clothes and the serfs lose their minds.

--

If British elections had:

Parties drawing up constituency boundaries

Polls closing at 6pm

Councils recording voters party support

Government-funded selection meetings

Returning officers standing for election

Zero regulation on election spending

Votes counted in secret

Hours-long queues to vote

Barely surmountable criteria to stand for election

No national rulebook for national election admin

Lunatic criteria for voter registration

A minimum of a dozen elections happening at once

Referendums to approve building a school

Voting machines hackable by 10 year olds

Electoral data sold to the highest bidder

Etc etc etc

Folk would go ape. But here we all are watching CNN as if this were a proper democratic election with a stats guy using a giant iPad and everything.

And that results are declared while some states are still voting

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#140
IIRC, when parts of Hawaii offered online voting - participation plummeted. People want to be seen voting as they view it as virtue signaling, and nobody sees you vote online. However, this could be contraindicated by Oregon+Washington State who have mail in ballots only and have very high participation.
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