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The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

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Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#131

Post by echevil »

virmundi wrote: post #48
echevil wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is that it will be more sustainable than government that restrict much less freedoms - people carry guns, have drugs, piss on the streets, destroy public properties and do all kinds of creepy things and government can’t really do much about it. How is that more sustainable

I'm confused. I carry a gun daily. I don't do drugs. I don't destroy public property, and I do all my creepy things in private. Having freedom does not mean you're a bad person. It means you are free to be who you are. Freedom allows you to see people's hearts. An iron fist shows you their fear. Given that the US is fairly sustaniable in a political sense (we average about 150 years between civil war, which is better…

My point is not about democracy vs authoritarian, but rather extreme individual liberty vs more restrictions (by law). Sure you won’t do bad thing but you cannot prevent every other people from doing so when it is their “freedom”. When a society tries to maximize individual liberty, there comes a heavy cost that it could drag down the total wellness of the entire society.

For example, chewing gum is forbidden for good reason in Singapore, vandalism is heavily punished, simply carrying drugs is a capital crime. All of these sacrifices in individual liberty actually make Singapore a much better place than US to live in.

Singapore also has a democratic process in their government. Given that most Singaporean are contempt with their government, there is no sign that people want one that maximizes liberty.

Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#132

Post by echevil »

korantu wrote: post #71
sampo wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think the other countries in the area are less corrupted than Singapore?

Sorry, I did not make it clear. I was talking about dynamics, IF government of Singapore for some reason in the future decides to do crazy shit - citizens will have harder time stopping it. That's all. I am not referring to situation right now, only in an unlikely future.

Plenty of democratic countries have severely corrupted leaders or government doing crazy shit. It’s not like democracy alone can make these shit stoppable

Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#133

Post by sonnyblarney »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #122
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love those clips on e.g. youtube where someone picks up the trash and throws it back in their face. Littering is illegal pretty much everywhere, but it's hard to enforce because there's not police everywhere.

It's not lawfulness that will keep the city clean it's institutionalized behaviour. In addition to being taught that in school ... things like 'shaming' enforce social behaviour.

It's the same thing that drives the non-usage of the 'n word' for example. North Americans don't use the n-word because of some kind of legality, it's socially taboo. If someone were to get out of hand with it, someone would say something.

Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#134

Post by exabrial »

coldtea wrote: post #91
exabrial wrote: post #8

What I found really interesting when I there earlier this year was that the ethnic Chinese complained quite a bit about the strict laws, but the ethnic British or Malaysian didn't seem to be bothered by the plethora of laws, the didn't really seem to interfere with their daily life

Well, if you're a British executive or similar well-off job, it's not like laws restrict your daily life. Between your company, the expensive hangouts, the mall shopping, and the country club, you come so little in contact with them, you might as well live in London or New York. If you're one of the statistically poorer ethnic Chinese or Malay, hustling to make a living, working in hawker centers, peddling some ware,…

Well said on every point, and this has been exactly my experience traveling to both locations (Beijing / London)

Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#135

Post by korantu »

echevil wrote: post #132
korantu wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I did not make it clear. I was talking about dynamics, IF government of Singapore for some reason in the future decides to do crazy shit - citizens will have harder time stopping it. That's all. I am not referring to situation right now, only in an unlikely future.

Plenty of democratic countries have severely corrupted leaders or government doing crazy shit. It’s not like democracy alone can make these shit stoppable

Our definitions of crazy shit are different :-) I am referring to large scale North Korea type shit, not the 'give government contracts to my friends' kind

Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#136

Post by 0max »

In contrast, keeping your environment clean and respecting it is ingrained in Japanese culture and respect for nature was born out of the Shinto faith which believes that there are "kami" or spirits in everything from nature. Instead of creating institutions that perform the work of cleaning, they should instead change the culture to compel the populace to respect their environment and to "leave no trace" instead.

Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#137

Post by CryptoPunk »

_0nac wrote: post #18
latch wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived in Singapore for a couple years and I can say that, at least as an expat, you hardly feel restrictions. Of the Singaporeans I know, locals from young to old, they all love it. Like all countries, it has its issues, but consider: - Freedom of religion particularly stands out - It has great and affordable health care - It's safe - Very easy to do business I could list more. Maybe freedom means something differe…

I suspect your sample size was heavily biased to your own social class. Singapore is ruthlessly capitalist, and can be a terrible place to be if you're poor or a foreign worker. One Straits Times (local Pravda) story I recall was about one of those old ladies who cleans up in hawker centres, earning on the order of S$100/month. This is way below a living wage, even in Singapore, and there's no state pension in Singap…

>>Singapore is ruthlessly capitalist, and can be a terrible place to be if you're poor or a foreign worker.

That's an overly simplistic and inaccurate analysis. The protection of private property rights, and the freedom to contract, which collectively you call "ruthlessly capitalist", is what generates the economic opportunities that allow people in Singapore to hire foreign workers.

Without the market rights you are critical of, many of those foreign worker jobs would not exist. If you think the foreign workers would be better off in their home country, you have a naive understanding of migrant labor.

Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#138

Post by bvxvbxbxb »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #100
coldtea wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In London, the “war on litter bins” (removal of litter bins from train stations and central areas, supposedly to prevent them being misused by terrorists) That is not the dumbest idea I have ever heard of. But it's close.

You're missing that these bins _were_ used in IRA bombings in London, and it turns out that the flying shrapnel from a heavy exploding bin is quite dangerous. Lighter-weight solutions were later introduced that limited the ability to place large objects in bins, or substituted large bins for clear plastic bags supported on a frame. These are still reasonably prevalent, though there could definitely stand to be more o…

One can usually tell which countries have experienced terrorism, or at least pondered it, by the type and construction of trash receptacles. America has many tens of thousands of thick decorative stone, concrete and metal public trash receptacles vulnerable to bombings. When that happens, they will be gone, but rarely before.

Last time I was in Victoria Station in London, there was one alumin(i)um hoop with a clear trash bag, emptied constantly.

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