Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Do the Rich Capture All the Gains from Economic Growth?

medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 311 posts

Re: Do the Rich Capture All the Gains from Economic Growth?

#131

Post by JAlexoid »

snikeris wrote: post #111
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/19/income-inequality-continues-... https://inequality.stanford.edu/publications/20-facts-about-... https://www.businessinsider.com/inequality-is-deepening-us-e... Will that do, or do you need more elaboration?

Thanks, I'll check these out. Inequality seems like a fact of life, so I'm wondering what's so horrifying about it. Edit: I was really hopeful for this Stanford resource, but I'm not even sure these "are facts that everyone should know". > 10. Residential Segregation tldr: Rich people and poor people don't live in the same areas. > 13. Bad Jobs tldr: Some people have bad jobs, and if you don't work full-time somewher…

Inequality isn't a problem. Fairness is the problem when it comes to economic growth. People want to have a fair chance, not just one half taking all the benefits.

Re: Do the Rich Capture All the Gains from Economic Growth?

#132

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

maxxxxx wrote: post #125
curun1r wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also likely use inflation statistics that are problematic, at best. When considering consumables, we've had pretty reasonable inflation and people are making more than their parents. But if you were to calculate inflation based on prices for things that don't benefit from advances in our production abilities (commodities, equities, housing, education, health care, etc), we'd be making nowhere near as much as pre…

Exactly. Low inflation doesn't help much if your salary increases get eaten up by housing, education hand healthcare. Rent, health care and education should be counted into inflation numbers.

Wait. Aren't rent, healthcare, AND education all included in the eight components of CPI? Isn't that how the government measures inflation?

I think one of the big things left off is housing prices. But I'm pretty sure rent, healthcare, and education are part of it:

https://www.bls.gov/cpi/factsheets/medical-care.htm

http://webapps.dol.gov/dolfaq/go-dol-faq.asp?faqid=94

Re: Do the Rich Capture All the Gains from Economic Growth?

#133

Post by harimau777 »

weberc2 wrote: post #69
rhacker wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the thing that is at odds with this attitude is that more and more prevalently "The people who receive employment from the steel mill." don't actually benefit from 500% growth. Instead they might have 6 additional months of job security with little to no raises. And that job security isn't a favor it's because that's the amount of time those workers are needed to get through whatever contract and not any furt…

It's not "shitting on" anyone; it's how (efficient) economics works. You don't earn more money unless you're producing more value. If a steel mill increases its output by way of some new automation, the accounting department and janitorial staff are unlikely to see a wage increase. The folks on the assembly line are also unlikely to see a wage increase because they're not more productive. The people who will be princ…

Aren't the people running the new machines creating more value because the machines make them more productive?

If not, doesn't that suggest that it would be virtually impossible for average people to meaningfully improve their economic condition since any meaningful increases in productivity are almost certainly going to be a result of advances in technology?

Re: Do the Rich Capture All the Gains from Economic Growth?

#134

Post by eiaoa »

weberc2 wrote: post #127
eiaoa wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Good question! That’s the “investment” part. They risked the funds to create the value in the first place in exchange for returns on their investment. That's not really an answer. You're just saying their entitled to the passive returns from ownership because they owned something else. It's circular. Anyone could take a risk with the funds if given access to them, even the janitors and line workers.

Then I'm not sure what answer you're hoping for. > You're just saying their entitled to the passive returns from ownership because they owned something else. Not sure what you mean here, but I agree that investors are entitled to the returns stipulated in the investment agreement. Hopefully this isn't a controversial position. > Anyone could take a risk with the funds if given access to them, even the janitors and li…

> Not sure what you mean here, but I'm saying investors are entitled to the returns stipulated in the investment agreement.

You said "...(efficient) economics [means y]ou don't earn more money unless you're producing more value." However, an owner can be nearly completely idle yet still profit handsomely, by simply paying others a modest fee to increase her fortune, so your statement isn't really true.

Re: Do the Rich Capture All the Gains from Economic Growth?

#135

Post by weberc2 »

harimau777 wrote: post #128
weberc2 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A pragmatic wealthy person in this scenario should see wealth redistribution as a wise investment, not a cost, seeing as the "let them eat cake" alternative is less desirable if you like to keep your head. This seems like a false dichotomy in that (for the foreseeable future) we have other options, like retraining people whose jobs have been automated away. This is strictly better (read "less invasive" and "more ec…

Retraining might equalize things enough to prevent violent insurrection. However, if a fair share of profit increases only go to executives/shareholders, then I'm not sure we can train people for jobs high enough up the hierarchy to actually reach a just system.

It's not really a tractable problem without concretely defining 'fair' and 'just'. It seems like you're driving toward something interesting (if only theoretical); I'd be really interested to hear from an economist.

Re: Do the Rich Capture All the Gains from Economic Growth?

#136

Post by snikeris »

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #124
snikeris wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, I'll check these out. Inequality seems like a fact of life, so I'm wondering what's so horrifying about it. Edit: I was really hopeful for this Stanford resource, but I'm not even sure these "are facts that everyone should know". > 10. Residential Segregation tldr: Rich people and poor people don't live in the same areas. > 13. Bad Jobs tldr: Some people have bad jobs, and if you don't work full-time somewher…

Not horrifying: When your refrigerator dies and you can go buy another without blinking. Horrifying: When you misplace a $20 bill and now you can't pay your rent. It's really simple to understand.

Okay, being poor can be horrifying. But I don't see what's horrifying about the fact that some people have more wealth than others.

Re: Do the Rich Capture All the Gains from Economic Growth?

#137

Post by gameswithgo »

kimmeld wrote: post #85
rconti wrote: post #49

This is an astoundingly bad comparison if it's missing the point I think it's missing. It's arguing that the average person makes more than their parents by comparing household income . I searched the article a few times for a few keywords trying to make sure I hadn't missed anything, but I see no mention of number of wage earners per household. All the rest, about "fringe benefits" and the conclusion that everything…

From past podcasts he doesn't see the problem with having two people working to get that gain while ignoring the individual stagnating/declining worker pay. That stance is not logical to me, but it seems to fit his view on the world.

Yeah, once two people are working you NEED more income. Often one of the two people working spends their entire paycheck on child care. You may also to speed more on cleaning, home and auto repair, as you will have less time to do those yourself. You may need to spend more on healthcare since there will be less time to work out and cook good meals. You may need to spend more on food as there will be less time to cook good meals.

It goes on!

Re: Do the Rich Capture All the Gains from Economic Growth?

#138

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

oh_sigh wrote: post #129
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I started at $55K in 2000. That was in line with normal and not part of the dotcom boom.

So you make $80k now or so? What has your career path been like? I can't imagine a senior engineer only making 80k/yr

I make more than that but living in a higher cost of living area nullifies that gain.

Re: Do the Rich Capture All the Gains from Economic Growth?

#140

Post by Jgrubb »

kimmeld wrote: post #80
roymurdock wrote: post #37

The author Russ Roberts runs the EconTalk podcast and is a well respected economist/journalist/thinker in the field, definitely worth reading for a fair assessment. Here he presents a few studies that go against general economic consensus popularized mainly by Piketty in "Capital in the 21st century" and through papers/writing by Krugman, Saez, Zucman, Stiglitz, etc. that most of the economic gains in the past 100 ye…

Russ' political views have been drifting steadily right over time so the data that he cherry picks regarding inflation, total household income, income inequality, is not surprising. I used to listen to his podcast pretty frequently to get a different perspective on econ but now it's pretty painful due to his increasing inability to see outside his own bubble.

That's funny, I unsubscribed just this week for the same reason.
Post reply on HN