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United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

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Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#131

Post by p49k »

otterley wrote: post #79
dragonwriter wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Purchasing a good or service with multiple components is not, in and of itself, a representation to the seller of intent to use all the components. Now, there could be something United has inserted in the purchase flow of all multileg tickets which assures that the purchaser makes a representation of intent to use every leg, though I've never seen anything like that when purchasing tickets (and a contract of adhesion…

> Purchasing a good or service with multiple components is not, in and of itself, a representation to the seller of intent to use all the components. Do you have a legal citation for this? I'm unaware of any law that supports this assertion. In any event, the representation in question is "I want to fly from city A to city B." It's pretty reasonable for an airline to conclude that when a passenger makes this request,…

The representation in question is "I want to buy a ticket that allows me to fly from City A to City B, stopping in City C."

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#132

Post by jrnichols »

computator wrote: post #56
394549 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is insane on a whole other level, because United profits when you don't get on that 2nd leg. Not necessarily. If you use use hidden-city ticketing, they lost out on extracting the extra money they wanted to charge you for going to your intended destination AND the extra money they may have been able to charge someone else for the leg you didn't take. That said, I think it's the airline's fault for using an ove…

> they lost out on the extra money they may have been able to charge someone else Not necessarily. Airlines have sophisticated yield management programs that should give them a good estimate on how many passengers are likely to skip the final leg of any particular route -- the airline can oversell the final leg by exactly the number of passengers who aren't likely to show up.

and am incorrect in thinking that if they now have an empty seat because you bailed on the leg, that they can let a standby passenger fill the seat?

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#133

Post by lotsofpulp »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #72

Warning: general rant about the cost of flights. I am genuinely entirely fucking sick of the awful experience of booking air travel. The thought of doing it fills me with dread now. Here is a recent example: a return flight booked with my partner from the UK to the US. His company later wants to send him to a conference in a place nearby a couple of days prior, and of course will happily pay for travel there, and on…

>Surely I’m not the only one who just wants to exchange money for a flight, based roughly on the actual cost?

Cost per seat per mile flown depends on fuel prices, labor prices, business/leisure demand, origin and destination, weather, etc. If it was easy then we would see the options present themselves, there's not that high of a barrier to entry to become an airline. Many have tried and many have failed, so there must be some reason that it's in the state that it's in.

All of the price discrimination actually helps poorer people fly, as the people who are able and willing to pay more can help pay for a greater share of the costs of operating the airline.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#134

Post by scrumper »

otterley wrote: post #54
ChuckMcM wrote: post #21

I doubt United will prevail in there efforts. It's "Contract of Carriage"[1] rule 6, sub-section J is where they put in all the verbiage about how they think they should be able to penalize you for avoiding their fare structures. It is pretty bogus and I'd love to see it litigated, to do that you really would have to do this stuff enough to get them to take action against you citing that rule, and then (now that you…

Attorney here! (Not providing legal advice, though.) I agree that the Contract of Carriage is probably not the strongest basis by which United can demand recompense for abandoning a segment. Instead, I think they have a better chance of prevailing on a common-law fraud theory; see my explanation above.

Lay person here.

Fraud is a criminal matter isn't it? Can United directly sue the passenger in civil court, or must they file a complaint with law enforcement and let a prosecutor handle it?

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#135

Post by otterley »

CaptainZapp wrote: post #128
otterley wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Impossibility is a defense to a breach of contract. And let’s not be silly; United’s not going to go after you for unintentional breach due to illness. Come on, use some common sense.

Are you arguing that buying a return ticket even though you need a (much more expensive) one way ticket and then not using the return segment is fraud? Apart from proving that you intentionally bought a return flight best of luck defining this as fraud in front of a judge.

Yes, that is fraud too, and is strictly prohibited by the Contract of Carriage.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#136

Post by otterley »

sk5t wrote: post #122
otterley wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to say this one last time. The false representation is "I intend to fly to city B." That's it. Nothing else. It's not "I intend to use all components of a series of segments that would get me to city B" as you suggest. You're making the analysis more complicated than it is, and that's why you would fail to persuade a court.

The representation is "I would like to purchase an option to travel towards this destination."

Courts apply a “reasonable person” standard when inferring intent from an action. It’s unlikely they’re going to interpret a ticket purchase as an option purchase, particularly since United doesn’t describe their flights as “options” anywhere in their business AFAICT.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#137

Post by CogitoCogito »

otterley wrote: post #90
Someone1234 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Intent need not be verbally communicated; any conduct that is recognized as a representation is sufficient. Indeed. You're arguing that the mere act of buying is and of itself a representation, which is erroneous. The whole rest of your arguments fall apart because that one core detail is wrong. > It absolutely holds up, in the same way that clicking an "I agree" button in an online transaction is a representation…

> Indeed. You're arguing that the mere act of buying is and of itself a representation, which is erroneous. It's not the purchase that is the representation. It is the communication that you want to fly to a particular city by placing it in the destination field or by telling it to the ticket agent. I'm tired of arguing this to amateurs; take it to a judge and try it yourself. I'll bring the popcorn.

> I'm tired of arguing this to amateurs; take it to a judge and try it yourself. I'll bring the popcorn.

I've upvoted your comments in this thread because they're interesting, but you don't seem to be providing many references yourself so I'm not so sure why you are demanding references of others. (You did reference the "I agree" button below, but I don't see how that implies fraud in this case.)

The question of fraud aside, my main question is what the actual financial harm is to United. It's not like they can say here's the price you would have gotten by going A -> B -> C and here's the price for A -> B, therefore you owe us the difference because there is no single price to refer to in the first place. All the different prices vary across the board at different times for different people for the same service. Also is there any real harm? Is taking the A -> B -> C route and hopping off at B causing them a financial loss?

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#138

Post by otterley »

p49k wrote: post #131
otterley wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Purchasing a good or service with multiple components is not, in and of itself, a representation to the seller of intent to use all the components. Do you have a legal citation for this? I'm unaware of any law that supports this assertion. In any event, the representation in question is "I want to fly from city A to city B." It's pretty reasonable for an airline to conclude that when a passenger makes this request,…

The representation in question is "I want to buy a ticket that allows me to fly from City A to City B, stopping in City C."

The declaration of intent is made before the stopover city is revealed to the prospective buyer. You don’t get to specify a stopover city when you select your origin and destination; only after those are entered is the routing revealed to the customer.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#139

Post by CaptainZapp »

otterley wrote: post #135
CaptainZapp wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you arguing that buying a return ticket even though you need a (much more expensive) one way ticket and then not using the return segment is fraud? Apart from proving that you intentionally bought a return flight best of luck defining this as fraud in front of a judge.

Yes, that is fraud too, and is strictly prohibited by the Contract of Carriage.

True story :

I booked two flights to Paris for my girlfriend and me. Before we left she found out that she has to return a day ealier. Instead of rebooking the flight (which would have been insanely expensive) she chose to return by train.

Arriving at the airport for the return segment I proceeded to the gate and informed the airline employee that my girlfriend will not make the flight and that I would like to check her out.

Instead of busting me and denying boarding (which would be the logical conclusion of your asessment) she thanked me profusely and I went on my merry ways (waiting for and eventually boarding the flight).

Now, you can certainly argue that we didn't know about her earlier return when booking the ticket. But we sure knew about it when boarding for the first segment. Nevertheless and despite the tickets running under the same record locator I did not have any problems boarding the return flight nor was I approached by the airline later.

Of course it could be that European airlines are generally not as hard nosed as United (they generally also don't rough up their passengers, but I digress). But I think it's more to the point that it's impossible to prove that I never intended to take the return flight. It certainly would be more obvious for hidden city / nested bookings strategies that I intended to save money (I would be very reluctant to call that fraud).

Moreover, fraud is a criminal concept. Violating the contract of carriage is certainly not.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#140

Post by jki275 »

trelliscoded wrote: post #129

I never understood how they found out if a passenger was skipping one leg of a flight. If it's the same plane, just get off, and if it's not the same plane, just check in to the next flight and don't board. Is someone counting heads or something while I'm not looking?

The flights are nearly always separate planes, and even if they're not they do count heads on the plane and if you walk up, hand in your boarding pass, and then walk away they're going to note that down because now they have to go into the computer and verify whether you have bags onboard that they have to offload because you aren't taking the flight.

There's no scenario where they don't know exactly who is sitting in what seat for every seat on every plane when it takes off, it's all just data in the computer they can reference.

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