Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030 • Hacker News Board

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#131

Post by meguest » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:48 PM UTC

bodas wrote: post #117

eanzenberg wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, production of cars (and consumerism in general) is extremely bad for carbon emissions and for the environment. Carbon emissions from the production of 1 car generally rival the lifetime emissions from the tailpipe [1]. If you have no choice but to replace an old car for new then sure, get a more efficient one. If you're replacing cars every 3 years like an average westerner, given the age of cars I see…

That would be fine except that cars release poison into the air, old cars especially. Eventually banning ICE cars is an essential public health measure.

That's a shame because there are some remarkable cars, both modern and classic, that will no longer be able to drive on the roads if we ban all ICE.

It would be the equivalent of banning steam engines, which although no longer in normal use, are still running as tourist attractions and remarkable pieces of engineering that are fantastic to see and experience.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#132

Post by cptaj » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:48 PM UTC

WhompingWindows wrote: post #85

PopeDotNinja wrote: post #26

I went to Denmark last year and spent two weeks driving all over the countryside, and likely would have been difficult to reach with an electric car. Many of the places I visited would not have been accessible via public transit. I'm curious how future generations will reach remote places as we move away from fossil fuels. BTW, I loved Denmark :)

Send yourself back in time to when less than 1% of the populace is using petrol cars to get around. In that timeframe of the early 1900's, it would've been incredibly hard to get around the rural areas as well, since they'd still be dominated by horse, foot, and perhaps bicycle traffic. Now, send yourself forward 100 years: it will be nearly impossible to use petrol-powered transport, and EV will be the standard. Say…

I absolutely agree with you about infrastructure. Its definitely coming and will cover most use cases.

But I do wonder how we're gonna cover that last mile. Adding hundreds of miles of range to an ICE car is hilariously simple, just a couple of plastic containers in the trunk and you're good to go.

Can't add extra batteries like that. Energy density is not a truism.

Maybe portable ICE generators, sort of like hybrid addons for full EVs.

I really liked the hybrid tech. I don't know why its not dominating.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#133

Post by secabeen » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:48 PM UTC

amluto wrote: post #115

munificent wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it seems to me that if you tax emissions strongly and uniformly enough, then at some point it has to have an impact. One way to look at that is that you're saying any market-based solution strong enough to be effective is indistinguishable from an outright ban. We could, for example, discourage smoking by putting a $500 tax on each pack of cigarettes. But at that point, you may as well stop pretending and ban it ou…

> One way to look at that is that you're saying any market-based solution strong enough to be effective is indistinguishable from an outright ban. I'm not sure I agree. I could easily imagine a range of carbon taxes applied to vehicles where most, but not all, users would switch to electric. There could easily be people who like taking long trips far from major roads and are willing to pay a large premium to do so. >…

The advantage of a ban is that you can also eliminate production and importation. If you have a legal path, that path will be diverted into the black market.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#134

Post by Annatar » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:49 PM UTC

mattlondon wrote: post #104

Annatar wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very straightforward. Now, who's going to foot that bill?

Same people who footed the bill for petrol/gas stations? I.e. commercial operators who want to sell you coffee/snacks/flowers/other high-markup items as well as fuel/energy. Added bonus for EV: longer dwell time while waiting for a fast-charge means more likely to spend spend spend (perhaps)

"Same people who footed the bill for petrol/gas stations?"

That would be me, and I don't want to foot that bill, because at a gas station I can fill up the tank in under five minutes, and at a recharging station I'd have to wait a minimum of half an hour, so I wouldn't be getting the same level of service as I do today. As far as my wallet and especially my time (which is far more expensive) are concerned: no!

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#135

Post by abakker » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:49 PM UTC

ashleyn wrote: post #110

eanzenberg wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, production of cars (and consumerism in general) is extremely bad for carbon emissions and for the environment. Carbon emissions from the production of 1 car generally rival the lifetime emissions from the tailpipe [1]. If you have no choice but to replace an old car for new then sure, get a more efficient one. If you're replacing cars every 3 years like an average westerner, given the age of cars I see…

Ironically, a big reason people buy new cars is because their old one failed emissions screening, and wasn't economical to repair.

I always wonder at this. I've seen those expensive repair bills and they're usually expensive relative to the value of the car to be repaired, but they're cheap relative to the cost of a brand new car.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#136

Post by rohit2412 » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:49 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #3

As great as it is, remember that hybrids are exempt. And the law is very lax when it comes to a definition of a hybrid - Range Rover has a model with a whooping 1 mile(!!!) of electric range, but of course it has an electric motor so it qualifies as a hybrid and could still be sold under this ban. I expect very very soon we'll see this kind of extremely minor electrification coming to all kinds of vehicles, where a t…

But then aren't hybrids better than BEV, given a few miles of range?

Why make a 90KwHr battery for a car, if you can make 3 cars out of it. After all current reserves of Cobalt, nickel, and lithium are finite.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#137

Post by abakker » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:50 PM UTC

meguest wrote: post #131

bodas wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be fine except that cars release poison into the air, old cars especially. Eventually banning ICE cars is an essential public health measure.

That's a shame because there are some remarkable cars, both modern and classic, that will no longer be able to drive on the roads if we ban all ICE. It would be the equivalent of banning steam engines, which although no longer in normal use, are still running as tourist attractions and remarkable pieces of engineering that are fantastic to see and experience.

I think this policy would ban new sales, not outright ban all old cars.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#138

Post by vidarh » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:51 PM UTC

Annatar wrote: post #91

toomuchtodo wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this not enough charging stations? https://i.imgur.com/dd9Jdzf.png (Orange are high power chargers, green are lower power chargers, source is plugshare.com)

For two million cars?

Denmark is small enough that with typical EVs today, you can drive tip to tip, pretty much. There are some journeys you might need to charge for, but not many of the journeys most people would make very often.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#139

Post by icebraining » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:52 PM UTC

lsiunsuex wrote: post #102

floatrock wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the sadness? As a "Car Guy" I'm thrilled about electric! Instant torque and acceleration, way more responsive than ICE. Just the other month there was the story where an electric shattered all the previous Pikes Peak records: https://www.teslarati.com/vw-id-r-electric-vehicle-pikes-pea... I mean, yeah, it doesn't have the same growl, but if you want raw performance, I'll take my spaceship whirl over rube goldberg…

the growl / sound / smell. The ability to modify, upgrade, "wrench on a car on the weekend" the ability to get beat on the track 1 weekend, drop a couple grand on new parts the next, then go back and beat them the following weekend. car shows and seeing a super charged mustang or camaro or twin turbos or something completely different someone came up with an idea for and built. the same way us programmers tinker and…

I'm no gearhead, but the Zombie222 looks good to me, and it's made by a tinkerer.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#140

Post by anticensor » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 4:53 PM UTC

vegardx wrote: post #30

seanalltogether wrote: post #5

Instead of governments announcing bans (I believe france announced a future ban a couple months back), I would rather see these governments committing to only purchasing electric vehicles for all government fleets. Why not put your money were your mouth is and help pump money into the industry via purchasing orders, rather then simply announcing a ban?

Perhaps they do? In Norway you're going to have a hard time finding a petrol or diesel car that fits the government requirements. See §5: https://lovdata.no/dokument/SF/forskrift/2017-12-11-1995/§5

Why are buses exempt? Too cold for electric buses?