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OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

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Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#131

Post by gpm »

azthec wrote: post #130
emilsedgh wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a team of humans made such horrible mistakes, they would never be able to compete nowhere near this level. Is OpenAI's team-fight "so good" that compensates for these huge mistakes and allows them to compete with pro teams? For me as a player, the team fights are quite confusing and overwhelming. The most complex part of the game. If the OpenAI team got the teamfights covered that well, I'm pretty much sure they c…

Yes, along with the fact that they are not really playing the same game that humans do: - 5 invulnerable couriers per team allow for very constant poking and pushing styles as regeneration items can be ferried back and forth from the base. This favours team fighting deathball oriented strategies where you just have non-stop aggression. - Very limited hero pool, this further compounds on the earlier issue as many good…

They aren't playing with the courier change anymore.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#132

Post by tree_of_item »

hsrada wrote: post #108
white-flame wrote: post #104

> OpenAI is a non-profit artificial intelligence research company that aims to promote and develop _FRIENDLY AI_ in such a way as to benefit humanity as a whole. I find it amusing & ironic that they're pursuing games of efficiently & strategically killing enemies as examples of their successful progress. ;-)

> I find it amusing & ironic that they're pursuing games of efficiently & strategically killing enemies as examples of their successful progress. ;-) Except that the amusement and irony would cease to exist once you have some idea of what's happening behind the scenes. The AI doesn't know it's "killing enemies". For it, it's just something that results in the increase of a numerical reward signal.

Is that supposed to remove the amusement and irony? "We're creating friendly AI! Well, it thinks it's friendly, since to it, everything is just a numerical reward signal."

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#133

Post by tree_of_item »

ionforce wrote: post #90
balls187 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recall reading somewhere that the real advantage AI had was in it's ability to come up with bizarre strategies that confuse human opponents.

I'm skeptical that you read this somewhere. AI doesn't "come up" with strategies. It's likely something that's been discovered in training and then mechanically repeated. But it doesn't "come up" with strategies out of nowhere.

Why doesn't it come up with strategies? The program is doing a massive search over an action space, of course it will find things there.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#134

Post by a_humean »

21 wrote: post #16

How can I tell looking at the screen who is winning? Is there a score somewhere? Maybe the left side sliders?

As others have said, there is no single indicator that tells you who is winning a game of dota. Net worth gold difference is usually, but not always, the best default indicator of who has an advantage. Kills and Towers are also a good secondary indicator. However, there are times when all three of those usually reliable indicators aren't relevant.

You can see net worth gold difference by looking at the text that appears in the top center which normally say something like ">1k" for one of the two teams. Its something they recently just added to the spectator UI.

The sliders you mentioned on left usually show individual player net worth, so you can see where resources are being allocated on the team. The "observer" (a camera man I guess) picks which stats to overlay in the top left over the course of the game depending upon which single indicator is most relevant.

In the early game those sliders normally show "last hits/denies" per player, which is about collecting early game resources. In the mid/late game its usually net worth per player. In the late game it starts looking at a thing called "buyback status", which is an ability all players have to spend a lot of their resources to rejoin the game early after getting killed. Using "buyback" is very expensive, scales with networth, and has a 5 minute cooldown.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#135

Post by Latty »

rajahafify wrote: post #98
noxvilleza wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're still the ~19th best team in the world.

No. TI is not a meritocracy. Pain came from the weakest region in the world. Without the SA slot, they wouldn't even be in TI.

Based on the name, you are replying to Noxville, who runs DatDota and knows these statistics in detail. Pain is 20th in the world according to their Glicko 2 rating (https://www.datdota.com/ratings) right now, he's not pulling it out of his ass because they were at TI.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#136

Post by azthec »

gpm wrote: post #131
azthec wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, along with the fact that they are not really playing the same game that humans do: - 5 invulnerable couriers per team allow for very constant poking and pushing styles as regeneration items can be ferried back and forth from the base. This favours team fighting deathball oriented strategies where you just have non-stop aggression. - Very limited hero pool, this further compounds on the earlier issue as many good…

They aren't playing with the courier change anymore.

Do you have a link? I would like to read the update

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#137

Post by gpm »

azthec wrote: post #136
gpm wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't playing with the courier change anymore.

Do you have a link? I would like to read the update

Unfortunately my source for this is just watching the game, I haven't seen any technical updates.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#138

Post by cryoshon »

emilsedgh wrote: post #129
rishav_sharan wrote: post #120

There are a lot of areas that OpenAI needs to improve on. the bots generally; 1. terrible at warding and dewarding 2. are terrible at using spell spam to farm. while their aoe spell usage is great in team fights, they suck at using spells to farm when they are alone. Gyro used his ult to farm a normal sized lane and still missed half the creeps. 3. don't understand bouncing spells like the lich nuke. In fact many tim…

If a team of humans made such horrible mistakes, they would never be able to compete nowhere near this level. Is OpenAI's team-fight "so good" that compensates for these huge mistakes and allows them to compete with pro teams? For me as a player, the team fights are quite confusing and overwhelming. The most complex part of the game. If the OpenAI team got the teamfights covered that well, I'm pretty much sure they c…

I assume that the robots are god-level last-hitters and farmers. perfect farming efficiency is enough to beat 99% of human teams. most players struggle to get 50 last hits in the first phase of the game, nevermind actually get every single piece of eligible farm.

edit: i would also expect that the robots are deny nazis, who severely crimp the farming of anyone who opposes them in the lane.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#139

Post by akyu »

adverbly wrote: post #70

Reaction time seems to be a lot more complicated than just 200ms flat. There were a lot of superhuman reactions that game which really made it difficult for humans to start a fight. At the same time though, increasing much more than 200ms might give a big advantage to humans in other situations. It will be interesting to see if they can find a better way to model it. All in all I am very impressed by the AI. So many…

Saying 200ms flat reaction time is "human level" is really unfair. That is raw reaction time when a is human paying attention for a stimulus, like in a reaction time test.

Lets look at casting a spell in a Dota. First I need to perceive my target. Then I need to move my mouse to the target, which is error prone. Then I need to press a button and click. Even for a human with extremely fast reaction time, this targeting phase will put you above 200ms easily, even if your perceptual reaction time was only 200ms.

The OpenAI bots don't have to target. They process their input, and take an action in just 200ms.

There may be situations where a human can make predictions, pretarget something and get a true 200ms reaction time, but in the general case 200ms is super human by a significant margin.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#140

Post by JoeAltmaier »

akyu wrote: post #139
adverbly wrote: post #70

Reaction time seems to be a lot more complicated than just 200ms flat. There were a lot of superhuman reactions that game which really made it difficult for humans to start a fight. At the same time though, increasing much more than 200ms might give a big advantage to humans in other situations. It will be interesting to see if they can find a better way to model it. All in all I am very impressed by the AI. So many…

Saying 200ms flat reaction time is "human level" is really unfair. That is raw reaction time when a is human paying attention for a stimulus, like in a reaction time test. Lets look at casting a spell in a Dota. First I need to perceive my target. Then I need to move my mouse to the target, which is error prone. Then I need to press a button and click. Even for a human with extremely fast reaction time, this targetin…

Hm. I used to run an experiment at an Engineering Fair at school. Oscilloscope, random pulse, trigger button, time the reaction time. Some fast kids could get it down to the double-digits, even 20-30 ms, pressing that button after seeing the pulse. If I remember right.
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