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The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

workmanlayout.org

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Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#131

Post by msla »

jstanley wrote: post #26
reacweb wrote: post #16

He uses the wrong test. Testing on "The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes" is meaningless for developpers: tests should be performed using real usages like "source code of linux kernel" or "mailing list of linux kernel" to have a better balance between code and text.

Even better, it should be performed using a recorded vim session, rather than a full file. The keystrokes you use while editing are not the same as those that end up in the finished file.

I wonder how well it would do with Emacs and all of the key chording.

(QWERTY does well enough if you move a Control key back where it belongs by doing away with the useless Caps Lock key. Looking at Workman, you'd need to do away with a redundant Backspace (???) key to get the same effect, but all of the other meta keys and punctuation look sane.)

Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#134

Post by hfdgiutdryg »

If you're having tendinitis related to programming, here's my advice, having gone from basically crippled and nearly crying in pain trying to drive my stick-shift car home to virtually pain-free for nearly two decades:

(Ordered from most to least important)

1) physical therapy and exercise. They'll show you stretches, which are probably the single most important part of healing. Later, I got into rock climbing and never had another tendinitis issue related to typing. Go easy, though, and use anti-inflammatories regularly and responsibly. Wrist braces help by giving your tendons a break and keeping them warm, but they don't solve anything on their own.

2) get a better keyboard. A true mechanical keyboard with a light touch will greatly reduced the irritation to your tendons. Lucky you, there are more on the market than ever before.

3) get a smarter keyboard. The Kinesis Classic changed my life. The Ergodox is very similar (both rooted in the Maltron, IIRC). The traditional 87/104 keyboard layout is absolutely absurd. Moving your entire hand to reach navigation keys and using your pinkies for return and tab? Lunacy. Yes, vim helps, but why reprogram your brain when you can just buy hardware that's not rooted in 19th century constraints?

4) keyboard layout. This is the least impactful change. It also takes the most time and will actually increase pain until you reprogram your muscle memory. It has the least payoff. It took about two weeks to type Dvorak with basic competency. About two months to reach what you'd call reasonably fast. And easily a year to get to a reliable 80+ WPM. On the plus side, I can fluently switch between Dvorak and QWERTY.

A lot of the talk online about keyboard layouts is just alpha-geek mental masturbation. Don't think a keyboard remap is going to save you if you're in pain.

Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#135

Post by hfdgiutdryg »

tjoff wrote: post #82
deno wrote: post #61

Sit up straight (fix your posture) and stop gluing your wrists to the desk or wrist “support” and the layout doesn’t matter unless you’re going for typing records. There is no magical layout that can eliminate the tension you’re artificially creating by stretching your fingers into unnatural positions instead of just moving the entire hand. What healthy typing looks like (on a horrible keyboard no less): https://www.…

It is natural to statically lift your arms like that for hours upon hours? Where one places the support is important, but I've seen conflicting statements whether lifting your arms would be beneficial. I have not yet seen the piano video but a piano is much bigger than a keyboard and I see tons of reasons as to why whatever works for one doesn't necessarily have to work for the other.

Having recovered from terrible wrist tendinitis, I advocate resting using a quality chair with adjustable, padded armrests and resting your forearm (just in front of the elbow works for me) on them. Having them slide in and out so your elbow is tucked in near your body is critical for comfort, in my experience.

My favorite chair so far is still the Steelcase Criterion.

Trying to support your arms while typing would create tremendous tension in your shoulders. I was always confused by the classic typist advice to have no arm rests.

Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#136

Post by hfdgiutdryg »

deno wrote: post #76
melling wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve got dozens of stories about people with RSI here: https://github.com/melling/ErgonomicNotes/blob/master/README... There doesn’t seem to be one cause or one solution.

You can put everything in that list into 3 categories: 1. Fixing the problem: posture & monitor/keyboard height 2. Masking the problem: anything with the word ergonomic 3. Avoiding the problem: typing less/taking frequent (flow-interrupting) breaks Of course most people with pain want quick solutions, so no. 2 is going to be over-represented. Fixing your posture actually takes work to stretch/compress different muscl…

Fixing poor ergonomics isn't making a problem.

Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#137

Post by deno »

hfdgiutdryg wrote: post #135
tjoff wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is natural to statically lift your arms like that for hours upon hours? Where one places the support is important, but I've seen conflicting statements whether lifting your arms would be beneficial. I have not yet seen the piano video but a piano is much bigger than a keyboard and I see tons of reasons as to why whatever works for one doesn't necessarily have to work for the other.

Having recovered from terrible wrist tendinitis, I advocate resting using a quality chair with adjustable, padded armrests and resting your forearm (just in front of the elbow works for me) on them. Having them slide in and out so your elbow is tucked in near your body is critical for comfort, in my experience. My favorite chair so far is still the Steelcase Criterion. Trying to support your arms while typing would c…

If you’re in a position to use armrests then you’re not sitting up straight. Likely leaning out on back “support” and your neck tensed up or on head “support” unless you have your monitor actually over above you.

Needless to say, trying to keep your wrists up in that position would be uncomfortable.

The best keyboard placement in this position is on your legs/thighs. Thin chiclet keyboard only laying flat. It’s not a replacement for fixing your posture, of course.

Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#138

Post by hfdgiutdryg »

floatboth wrote: post #109
cammil wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a theory that one "should" use the _other_ hand for any modifiers. Presumably and primarily so that the letter key is always pressed using the same finger and position of the hand.

I never cared about using the "correct" shift key.

I think it matters most for those with smaller hands. That said, if you were transcribing stuff all day long (i.e. typing way more than a programmer), you might notice less fatigue if you shifted "properly".

Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#139

Post by hfdgiutdryg »

vemv wrote: post #52

I left Colemak for Qwerty some 5 years ago. Keyboard layout matters much less than your typing technique. Same thing for ergonomic keyboards - they can be a dangerous sign that you're focusing on the wrong thing, on micro-optimizations rather than on the root cause. I have no guide to share unfortunately but I'd recommend observing one's movements, and try to figure out what's the most natural way of doing a given th…

Same thing for ergonomic keyboards - they can be a dangerous sign that you're focusing on the wrong thing, on micro-optimizations rather than on the root cause.

I disagree. It depends on the keyboard, of course. For example, the Microsoft Natural I had in the 90s was a complete POS that exacerbated my tendinitis. It was a cheap sliding-post keyboard. If your finger hit anywhere but dead-on, the resistance was tremendous.

A good mechanical keyboard will provide perfectly consistent resistance, which will be a huge improvement over a poorly designed, cheaper keyboard.

A more advanced option like the Kinesis or Ergodox completely eliminates many of the fundamental problems with traditional keyboards that create pain in the first place.

Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#140

Post by hfdgiutdryg »

deno wrote: post #137
hfdgiutdryg wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having recovered from terrible wrist tendinitis, I advocate resting using a quality chair with adjustable, padded armrests and resting your forearm (just in front of the elbow works for me) on them. Having them slide in and out so your elbow is tucked in near your body is critical for comfort, in my experience. My favorite chair so far is still the Steelcase Criterion. Trying to support your arms while typing would c…

If you’re in a position to use armrests then you’re not sitting up straight. Likely leaning out on back “support” and your neck tensed up or on head “support” unless you have your monitor actually over above you. Needless to say, trying to keep your wrists up in that position would be uncomfortable. The best keyboard placement in this position is on your legs/thighs. Thin chiclet keyboard only laying flat. It’s not a…

If you’re in a position to use armrests then you’re not sitting up straight

What an ignorant statement. It very obviously depends on the chair and body in question.

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