So I made something that's pretty stupid but had fun doing it • Hacker News Board

Re: So I made something that's pretty stupid but had fun doing it

#131

Post by chc » Sat, Oct 09, 2010, 5:52 PM UTC

mahmud wrote: post #71

knieveltech wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"3000 years of beautiful tradition from Moses to Sandy Cofax, you're goddamn right I'm living in the past!" - Walter Sobchak First thing that popped in my head. Yeah, here come the downvotes.

FWIW, it pisses me off that this Hitler character is so closely identified with Jews. Must every mention of Judaism be associated with this monster, and vice versa?

Not every mention of Judaism is associated with Hitler, so I'm not sure why you ask. Most of the times I hear Judaism mentioned, it is not in the context of Adolf Hitler. I think you're the first person I've ever heard draw a universal connection between the two.

As for Hitler, he is most famous (at least in America) for his violent hatred of the Jewish people, so it is likely that mentioning him will bring it to mind. I mean, what are we supposed to think of? Complaining that Hitler is associated with Jews seems like saying, "Good grief, every time I mention Picasso, people think of Cubist art!"

Re: So I made something that's pretty stupid but had fun doing it

#132

Post by philwelch » Sat, Oct 09, 2010, 6:56 PM UTC

Jach wrote: post #129

whyleyc wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the examples you give are terrible and inexcusable, however they don't support your assertion that the British Empire was more evil than the Third Reich, given what we know about the sheer scale of systematic extermination during the Holocaust. It just doesn't compare I'm afraid. Also, the British Empire, whilst causing harm, did bring benefits to some countries (something it would be hard to argue the T…

Sounds like you're saying the British Empire was more similar to the Romans than to the Third Reich. I don't necessarily disagree, since I consider myself ignorant on large swathes of history to make a confident judgment, but doing a little searching brings up a couple numbers. The Holocaust killed ~15 million (which includes non-Jews too). In the late 19th century, the British Empire was directly responsible for ~30…

The Third Reich killed 15 million people within barely over a decade, plus a few more dozen million in the wars it started, with virtually no redeeming characteristics. The British empire killed more people than that, yes, but over the course of centuries and with enough redeeming characteristics that they likely saved tens of millions of lives as well, by enriching their empire through infrastructure improvement, free trade, and good government.

It's quite notable that of all the countries Britain supposedly oppressed in their empire, many of them freely choose to remain part of the Commonwealth today.

If you judge any regime by the worst thing it's done, every regime is evil.

Re: So I made something that's pretty stupid but had fun doing it

#133

Post by philwelch » Sat, Oct 09, 2010, 7:12 PM UTC

paul9290 wrote: post #110

Is there adoration for Hilter these days? The hilter videos are crazy popular and this a cutesy drawing of man who massacred thousands; marched thousands of innocent people into gas chambers and terminated them. He seems to have become more hero then villan these past few years!

It's an interesting question. Before and during WWII, it was very popular to mock Hitler, because of the general over-the-top pompousness of his oratorical style and public image. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Dictator, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Fuehrers_Face) Afterwards, the general attitude was one of somber, shocked horror. I'm not overly bothered by the fact that people have gone back to laughing at Hitler. I don't think people have forgotten the gravity of his crimes so much as they've become willing to use that as a backdrop for juxtaposition.

Re: So I made something that's pretty stupid but had fun doing it

#134

Post by rwhitman » Sat, Oct 09, 2010, 8:17 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #100

Untitled wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I dunno, I normally have a thick skin and a good sense of humor, but having been raised jewish its hard for me to look at cuddly hitler and not cringe a little Maybe you should grow a thicker skin? The British Empire was arguably more evil than the German Reich (and did evil for quite a few centuries). Yet the Union Jack is displayed everywhere (even on shirts) and the same hateful institutions are still there (e.g…

I get into the same arguments with kids wearing Che shirts. It's not worth it. Being evil is one thing, being evil and losing a war against us makes you the villain forever.

I'm sure people would be equally offended as I am if the app had cutesy pictures of Pol Pot, or Stalin or any other brutal dictator known for mass genocide

Re: So I made something that's pretty stupid but had fun doing it

#135

Post by rwhitman » Sat, Oct 09, 2010, 8:22 PM UTC

geekdesigngirl wrote: post #94

araneae wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over-react much? Also, what is the point of this statement: "I put in Dalai Lama and there's a separation of 3." Are you complaining that it's a short connection? I mean, obviously, this is simply demonstrating the small world effect, which is a pretty amoral concept as far as concepts go.

I suppose I did over-react. My apologies. Perhaps I am in the wrong since I seem to be the only voice that opposes this application. Before coming to the web development world, I was a counselor for troubled youth and adults with mental disabilities (2 separate jobs); our words were important in those positions and I think I'm carrying that over into this current space. And, I wasn't complaining about the short conne…

You didn't overreact. Apparently there are a lot more people on this board who are insensitive to what Hitler represents than I would have given it credit for. Very disappointing

Re: So I made something that's pretty stupid but had fun doing it

#136

Post by rwhitman » Sat, Oct 09, 2010, 8:29 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #125

rwhitman wrote: post #85

Ok, I get it. But I'm not amped by it. 2 reasons: 1) Hitler is associated with way too many entries, I mean for 10 years he controlled most of europe, there isn't a topic in 20th century history he doesn't touch at some point. Its too easy to get to hitler through wikipedia. I'd like to see it with someone less obvious (and funnier) - like Ted Nugent 2) I'm kind of disturbed by the cutesy drawings of Hitler. I dunno,…

> I mean for 10 years he controlled most of europe It wasn't nearly 10 years. The Anschluss was in 38, by May 45 Hitler was dead, and Europe was for the most part free again (except for those parts that happened to find themselves under the Soviet boot). The German expansion in Europe was at it's peak by August 1942, when the Russians fought off the Germans in and around Stalingrad, one month later allied forces succ…

Well he was a major player in european politics for over 10 years. I know my history - the point is that hitler had an overwhelming influence on the 30's and 40's in europe and touched a disproportionate number of topics from 1933-1945

Re: So I made something that's pretty stupid but had fun doing it

#137

Post by rwhitman » Sat, Oct 09, 2010, 8:38 PM UTC

Untitled wrote: post #89

rwhitman wrote: post #85

Ok, I get it. But I'm not amped by it. 2 reasons: 1) Hitler is associated with way too many entries, I mean for 10 years he controlled most of europe, there isn't a topic in 20th century history he doesn't touch at some point. Its too easy to get to hitler through wikipedia. I'd like to see it with someone less obvious (and funnier) - like Ted Nugent 2) I'm kind of disturbed by the cutesy drawings of Hitler. I dunno,…

> I dunno, I normally have a thick skin and a good sense of humor, but having been raised jewish its hard for me to look at cuddly hitler and not cringe a little Maybe you should grow a thicker skin? The British Empire was arguably more evil than the German Reich (and did evil for quite a few centuries). Yet the Union Jack is displayed everywhere (even on shirts) and the same hateful institutions are still there (e.g…

So because the british committed atrocities through policy decisions over the course of several centuries, I shouldn't be offended by cuddly representations of hitler - a man that presided over the slaughter of several generations of both my jewish and non-jewish extended family? Is that what you're saying?

Re: So I made something that's pretty stupid but had fun doing it

#138

Post by whyleyc » Sat, Oct 09, 2010, 10:03 PM UTC

Untitled wrote: post #130

whyleyc wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the examples you give are terrible and inexcusable, however they don't support your assertion that the British Empire was more evil than the Third Reich, given what we know about the sheer scale of systematic extermination during the Holocaust. It just doesn't compare I'm afraid. Also, the British Empire, whilst causing harm, did bring benefits to some countries (something it would be hard to argue the T…

> more evil than the Third Reich, given what we know about the sheer scale of systematic extermination during the Holocaust. Six million people died during the Holocaust. Probably many more died because of the British Empire's policies. The biggest causes of this was probably the policies of the British Empire that caused famines (by letting British landowners export food while the native population starves) and the…

> Probably many more died because of the British Empire's policies

I don't think body counts are a useful indicator of the level of evil intent of a government or a regime. On that basis the U.S. would fare significantly worse than Nazi Germany, based on the 10-16 million killed as a result of U.S. foreign policy since 1945 alone (see http://nottheenemy.com/index_files/Death%20Counts/Death%20Co...) It would take a crackpot to declare the U.S more "evil" than Nazi Germany.

> The benefits that you mentioned was[sic] simply benefits of an industrial society

Not true. China is increasingly a heavily industrialised society yet still maintains an autocratic system of government with no democracy. It doesn't follow that just because a society embraces industrialisation it implements a fair system of government or invests heavily in infrastructure programs - just look at the crumbling roads and transport in North Korea alongside their hi-tech nuclear ambitions.

> The general population in the victim countries did not share in the advantages of it

To quote Manmohan Singh (the current Prime Minister of India):

"Today, with the balance and perspective offered by the passage of time and the benefit of hindsight, it is possible for an Indian Prime Minister to assert that India's experience with Britain had its beneficial consequences too. Our notions of the rule of law, of a Constitutional government, of a free press, of a professional civil service, of modern universities and research laboratories have all been fashioned in the crucible where an age old civilisation met the dominant Empire of the day."

(see http://www.rediff.com/news/2005/jul/12spec.htm)

> Probably the worst thing that the British Empire did was large scale ethnocide

This is undeniable, and indefensible. However, unlike Nazi Germany it appears this wasn't the Raison d'être for the empire.

> People in Britain still live with the mindset that colonialism and their colonial empire was a good thing.

Not true. I don't know what evidence you are basing this opinion on, but the brutal effects of Colonialism are taught throughout the British national school curriculum and in various British museums. No punches are pulled. (see http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:zPJS4o3...)

Re: So I made something that's pretty stupid but had fun doing it

#139

Post by whyleyc » Sat, Oct 09, 2010, 10:21 PM UTC

Jach wrote: post #129

whyleyc wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the examples you give are terrible and inexcusable, however they don't support your assertion that the British Empire was more evil than the Third Reich, given what we know about the sheer scale of systematic extermination during the Holocaust. It just doesn't compare I'm afraid. Also, the British Empire, whilst causing harm, did bring benefits to some countries (something it would be hard to argue the T…

Sounds like you're saying the British Empire was more similar to the Romans than to the Third Reich. I don't necessarily disagree, since I consider myself ignorant on large swathes of history to make a confident judgment, but doing a little searching brings up a couple numbers. The Holocaust killed ~15 million (which includes non-Jews too). In the late 19th century, the British Empire was directly responsible for ~30…

I agree that human psychology seems to pre-dispose us to being more shocked by tragic events that occur within a shorter timeframe (this has been even more amped-up since the advent of 24 hour rolling news of course). However, as I've mentioned below I don't think body counts are a useful indicator of the evil intent of a regime (it opens up a can of worms for many modern states).

In terms of the "balance sheet" for the British Empire, ultimately it's hard to argue for more good than bad in the forced imposition of power from one state on another. The legacy of territorial conflicts birthed by Britain's hasty withdrawal have not helped either.

However, my point was not to try and write a defence of British imperialism, but to try and discredit this notion that the British Empire was more evil than the Third Reich, a state that more than any other plumbed the depths of human misery. It seems strange to argue that Nazi Germany had any benefit to it.

Re: So I made something that's pretty stupid but had fun doing it

#140

Post by Untitled » Sun, Oct 10, 2010, 2:46 AM UTC

whyleyc wrote: post #138

Untitled wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> more evil than the Third Reich, given what we know about the sheer scale of systematic extermination during the Holocaust. Six million people died during the Holocaust. Probably many more died because of the British Empire's policies. The biggest causes of this was probably the policies of the British Empire that caused famines (by letting British landowners export food while the native population starves) and the…

> Probably many more died because of the British Empire's policies I don't think body counts are a useful indicator of the level of evil intent of a government or a regime. On that basis the U.S. would fare significantly worse than Nazi Germany, based on the 10-16 million killed as a result of U.S. foreign policy since 1945 alone (see http://nottheenemy.com/index_files/Death%20Counts/Death%20Co... ) It would take a c…

> China is increasingly a heavily industrialised society yet still maintains an autocratic system of government with no democracy.

So? The Chinese government is arguably more responsible than many democratic countries (as far as foreign policy is concerned). It is not involved with any foreign wars (whilst democratic countries such as the USA are involved in 2).

China (as an autocratic country) is arguably better governed than democratic countries in the same position (e.g. India). So I don’t really get the point of what you are trying to say.

PS: Note that Britain tried to destroy the very fabric of Chinese society by flooding the country with Opium (see for example the Opium Wars). Trying to create a captive market by flooding a country with drugs (enforced by a navy) is pretty evil, IMHO.

> but the brutal effects of Colonialism are taught throughout the British national school curriculum and in various British museums.

Yet the symbolism remains. A good example is Cecil John Rhodes who basically raped the 3rd world (he owned the country of Zimbabwe). Yet a lot of things are still proudly named after him. Another example is the continued British reverence of the Royal Family (which was basically a hereditary dictatorship). So, the German equivalent would be naming things after Himmler and revering the Nazi Party.