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Credit-Card Backlash Mounts as Kroger Weighs Expanding Visa Ban

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Re: Credit-Card Backlash Mounts as Kroger Weighs Expanding Visa Ban

#131

Post by MrEldritch »

adrr wrote: post #107
mehrdadn wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is avoiding and completely missing the point of my question. I was not asking whether card fees can vary based on how the card is processed. I was asking to precisely what extent they can vary based on the card itself . Please re-read my entire question above.

Variable interchange fees range from 0.05% for Visa Debit Cards(Big Banks) to 2.4% for VISA Infinite for most merchant categories. Fees vary by card type and also merchant type.

dataflow, have you considered that just possibly the reason people kept "avoiding the question" and "giving you irrelevant answers" is maybe - just maybe - not out of some inexplicable desire to intentionally waste your time, but is actually because they misunderstood your question, because it was in fact very unclearly worded?

Re: Credit-Card Backlash Mounts as Kroger Weighs Expanding Visa Ban

#132

Post by mehrdadn »

adrr wrote: post #130
mehrdadn wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Debit cards and credit cards are obviously different beasts though. You might as well be comparing cash against credit cards. Nobody expects them to be treated equally. The question was, can/do merchants discriminate against different types of credit cards from the same network (such as regular vs. Signature Rewards)?

There is debit, prepaid, prepaid non-reloadable, business credit, business debit, government/purchasing, payroll, credit cards(gold, signature,infinite) in the US. Add international and there's a lot more like Electron(travel debit). It even gets more complicated because debit can be broken down to durbin and non durbin. You can actually get debit cards that give you rewards that charge at credit card level interchan…

> If you're talking credit cards

Yes

> I don't know anyone that discriminates against the different types but it is very possible because you can get that info from the PAN.

Yes, this was my question, i.e. I'm wondering if merchants can be charged different rates for the same kind of card (e.g. for Visa signature credit cards coming from different issuers or having different perks) consistent with contracts/laws/other practicalities, not just from a strictly technical standpoint. (Any what the relevant reasons might be.)

Re: Credit-Card Backlash Mounts as Kroger Weighs Expanding Visa Ban

#133

Post by JumpCrisscross »

mehrdadn wrote: post #126
adrr wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Variable interchange fees range from 0.05% for Visa Debit Cards(Big Banks) to 2.4% for VISA Infinite for most merchant categories. Fees vary by card type and also merchant type.

This is frustrating. Again , you guys are avoiding the question. I don't understand why you guys are doing this. Not only does it waste your own time and mine to be answering a different question than the one asked, you're also repeating a point others have gotten across already [1] [2]. Could you please, please actually read the question? I had very clearly and specifically asked about the same kind of card (which,…

> the same kind of card...where the only difference was the card perks

The same card means the same perks. You're describing two different cards. They may be similarly branded. But they're different cards to the interchange and different cards (from a rewards perspective) to the consumer.

If you think someone is "avoiding the question," it might be you're miscommunicating.

Re: Credit-Card Backlash Mounts as Kroger Weighs Expanding Visa Ban

#134

Post by ams6110 »

jimmy1 wrote: post #117
cycrutchfield wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people that care get a substantial portion of those fees back (either as cash or rewards). So in reality, those fees are a tax on the poor, the un-creditworthy, and the financially illiterate.

Most places that the poor (at least in rural areas) shop at offer substantial discounts for paying with cash. There is typically the "cash" price and the "card" price. At a liquor store, a 44 dollar bottle paid with card is 39 dollars cash. A haircut at the local barber is 13 dollars cash or 15 dollars card.

My barber doesn't take cards at all. Cash or check only.

Re: Credit-Card Backlash Mounts as Kroger Weighs Expanding Visa Ban

#135

Post by mehrdadn »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #133
mehrdadn wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is frustrating. Again , you guys are avoiding the question. I don't understand why you guys are doing this. Not only does it waste your own time and mine to be answering a different question than the one asked, you're also repeating a point others have gotten across already [1] [2]. Could you please, please actually read the question? I had very clearly and specifically asked about the same kind of card (which,…

> the same kind of card...where the only difference was the card perks The same card means the same perks. You're describing two different cards. They may be similarly branded. But they're different cards to the interchange and different cards (from a rewards perspective) to the consumer. If you think someone is "avoiding the question," it might be you're miscommunicating.

No, you're not reading what I wrote. I said the "same kind of card", not the "same card". I clearly said by "kind" I was referring to regular/Signature/whatever. We have two cards that might come from different issuers (maybe Citi vs. Chase), and/or have different points or cash back or other such perks for the cardholder (maybe 2% cash back vs. 5x points), but we assume both are Visa Signature credit cards, processed by the same merchant, in the same manner, for the same product, at the same (approximate) time, in the same location, by the same person, for the same person, for the same price, etc... and I'm asking if they the merchant can be charged different fees for these cards. These are, clearly, not the "same card". Is this clear?

Re: Credit-Card Backlash Mounts as Kroger Weighs Expanding Visa Ban

#136

Post by smileysteve »

ashishb wrote: post #109

https://www.bostonfed.org/publications/public-policy-discuss... " On average, each cash-using household pays $149 to card-using households and each card-using household receives $1,133 from cash users every year. Because credit card spending and rewards are positively correlated with household income, the payment instrument transfer also induces a regressive transfer from low-income to high-income households in gener…

I don't buy this because it discounts the high costs of cash controls.

Cash has high costs that likely make electronic forms of payment competitive.

You have

- Employees skimming the till;

- Theft insurance for a safe, the nightly amount in the safe

- Managers balancing the cash registers with change/safe

- Armored trucks picking up the money (2-3 men guarding the transfer)

- Banks processing the money

- Employee time and frustration ensuring they didn't come up short

tldr; It takes one armed robbery or employee malfeasance before ~2% fees seem very much worth it to reduce cash on hand.

Re: Credit-Card Backlash Mounts as Kroger Weighs Expanding Visa Ban

#137

Post by pseingatl »

MrEldritch wrote: post #127
toomuchtodo wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re also trying to push Walmart Pay as well. At their scale, it’s worth it. Despite the pain, I still think Walmart should’ve acquired and rebranded a bank, and offered financial products. Would do wonders for the unbanked, while keeping their transaction fees down.

I seem to recall from a previous discussion about the possibility of Amazon buying a bank that such an arrangement would be extremely illegal. IIRC, there's a law expressly prohibiting any company from both acting as a bank and a retail business. edit: Yep, there is. The Bank Holding Company Act prevents companies in commerce from engaging in banking activities.

Laws can be changed. An entity like Amazon can lobby for a change. Donate money to politicians likely to vote for a change. Call for a change on the editorial page of the Washington Post. Remember, once upon a time, there was but one phone company. Then the law changed... Interstate/branch banking was illegal. Then the law changed. Amazon could probably set up a members-(i.e., customers) only credit union without too much difficulty.

Re: Credit-Card Backlash Mounts as Kroger Weighs Expanding Visa Ban

#138

Post by MrEldritch »

mehrdadn wrote: post #135
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the same kind of card...where the only difference was the card perks The same card means the same perks. You're describing two different cards. They may be similarly branded. But they're different cards to the interchange and different cards (from a rewards perspective) to the consumer. If you think someone is "avoiding the question," it might be you're miscommunicating.

No, you're not reading what I wrote. I said the "same kind of card" , not the "same card" . I clearly said by "kind" I was referring to regular/Signature/whatever. We have two cards that might come from different issuers (maybe Citi vs. Chase), and/or have different points or cash back or other such perks for the cardholder (maybe 2% cash back vs. 5x points), but we assume both are Visa Signature credit cards, proces…

>No, you're not reading what I wrote

At what point should you start to suspect that the issue is not on the client side, but the server?

Re: Credit-Card Backlash Mounts as Kroger Weighs Expanding Visa Ban

#139

Post by mehrdadn »

MrEldritch wrote: post #138
mehrdadn wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you're not reading what I wrote. I said the "same kind of card" , not the "same card" . I clearly said by "kind" I was referring to regular/Signature/whatever. We have two cards that might come from different issuers (maybe Citi vs. Chase), and/or have different points or cash back or other such perks for the cardholder (maybe 2% cash back vs. 5x points), but we assume both are Visa Signature credit cards, proces…

>No, you're not reading what I wrote At what point should you start to suspect that the issue is not on the client side, but the server?

> At what point should you start to suspect that the issue is not on the client side, but the server?

After I see myself being at least quoted accurately? I repeatedly wrote "same kind of card", and I was quoted as asking about the "same card". That is my fault?

Re: Credit-Card Backlash Mounts as Kroger Weighs Expanding Visa Ban

#140

Post by seszett »

sorenbs wrote: post #18

In Denmark we have a national payment system called Dankort. All issued Visa cards also work as Dankort. Transaction fees on Dankort is one tenth of visa, and all payment terminals default to Dankort. This saves Danish retail a lot of money while still ensuring they we can buy stuff online and when traveling using visa.

I think most countries have that. CB in France, Interac in Canada, Bancontact in Belgium, etc.

But that concept sounds like it wouldn't fare well in the US.

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