The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.” • Hacker News Board

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#131

Post by knowuh » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 4:32 PM UTC

Sharlin wrote: post #9

chris_mc wrote: post #2

If you think libraries are useless, try going to one a few times and talk to the staff about the services they provide. I'd personally say libraries are one of the government organizations with the best return on investment, because education and information are almost invaluable. I'll fight a war over libraries, no joke.

Last time I read a library-related discussion on HN, one of the sentiments expressed was basically ”I download ebooks, why would anyone need a library?” Boggles the mind. There was also a bizarre comment about libraries being only funded to keep a bunch of otherwise useless civil servants employed.

I download ebooks from my library.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#132

Post by prolikewh0a » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 4:33 PM UTC

cdubzzz wrote: post #82

romaniv wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very important point. Libraries do more than just lend books. They are institutions that preserve and promote knowledge and have certain values "built in". They also often serve as local community centers of sorts. Having cheap books available in Kindle store does not fully replace functionality of a library.

> They also often serve as local community centers of sorts. The public libraries in Seattle are an amazing thing. My wife goes to "kids play time" with our ten month old son at a couple of different libraries every week. And we can also bring him in to the kids play area any time and take the kids area books on the honor system. It's a really great way to interact with other kids until we start using day care or he…

The Capitol Hill branch of Seattle Public Libraries was the first Library I had been to in probably 20 years and I fell in love with the entire system. It made me read much more than I was in the past and the free events and learning they have are amazing. It is an enormous benefit to the citizens of the city, as well as the low income/poor who can charge their cell phones or use the internet so they can keep up with potential employers who may call them or send them emails, as well as look for jobs or complete online applications (as well as many more things).

They also provide a free subscription to Lynda with your library card.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#133

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 4:34 PM UTC

EliRivers wrote: post #109

maym86 wrote: post #5

I'm sick of people going after things they don't use or understand that are valuable to people of lesser means while spewing the efficiencies of the free market. Amazon only makes as much money as it does because it manages to avoid paying tax while utilizing the infrastructure built and maintained by collecting taxes.

Don't forget about their pursuit of the lowest possible standards of employment and working conditions.

[deleted]

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#134

Post by ajross » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 4:34 PM UTC

geebee wrote: post #12

I'm largely in agreement with this Vox piece, but I think there's much more to say in defense of libraries as well. I have a friend who found a red envelope with some money in it in a book that he'd checked out of the library. He figured it belonged to whoever had checked the book out earlier, so he went into the branch and mentioned it. They said that they could find out the last person to read the book, but no more…

> librarians (at least in that system) deliberately avoided keeping long term records of what people are reading, to safeguard privacy rights.

Are you sure that's true? I mean, my local library (like most, I'm sure) has a fully digital checkout log which keeps a pretty decent amount of state for active records.

A pretty reasonable architecture, given the size (small) of the system, would simply keep this data around for as long as needed. Sure, they might not be particularly diligent about backups and preservation for stale/useless data. And no, they probably aren't exploiting it to sell you ads.

But I'd bet anything that they aren't deliberately purging old data. They probably have it all sitting around somewhere, because frankly that's the obvious implementation choice. Designing systems to affirmatively delete stuff (and not break in crazy ways) is actually fairly hard, and libraries aren't given to elaborate engineering.

I'm willing to bet that the quote you got from the librarian was aspirational: she doesn't keep data, she cares about privacy, and she hopes and expects that the people who wrote the backend do too. My intuition says otherwise.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#135

Post by sedachv » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 4:34 PM UTC

jmpman wrote: post #113

https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/18157

The US government subsidizing Amazon in lieu of public libraries is disgusting.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#136

Post by minikites » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 4:35 PM UTC

JoeDaDude wrote: post #117

Librarians sometime have to fight to defend their patrons privacy. Some might remember that in the wake of 9/11 there were thoughts that libraries could tip off law enforcement by tracking patrons reading preferences [1]. More recent treatment of the issues - and laws - about the privacy, or lack thereof, of library patrons is discussed in [2]. [1]. https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/FBI-checking-out-Ame... [2].…

>in the wake of 9/11

Patron privacy has always been a bedrock of librarianship:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoia_Horn

>Horn was jailed for nearly three weeks for contempt of court after refusing to testify for the prosecution in the 1972 conspiracy trial of the "Harrisburg Seven" anti-war activists.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#137

Post by AlphaWeaver » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 4:35 PM UTC

Speaking from a perspective of working in [one of the nicest libraries in the world][0], I think there's definitely room for technology to continue improving libraries and offering additional services, while continuing to maintain the heart and soul of what a library is. My library mentioned above may have discovered an insanely innovative way of storing books, but that allows the staff to help us more, not be reduced or replaced by computers. I think if all libraries strike this delicate balance, we'll be in good shape.

[0]: https://www.lib.ncsu.edu/huntlibrary

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#138

Post by howard941 » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 4:35 PM UTC

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #15

So Forbes takes the op-ed down and says: “Forbes advocates spirited dialogue on a range of topics, including those that often take a contrarian view,” a Forbes spokesperson says in a statement. “Libraries play an important role in our society. This article was outside of this contributor’s specific area of expertise, and has since been removed.” [0] Forbes op-ed's are filled to the brim with people speculating about…

The fact the piece was taken down from the web supports the need for physical libraries where access and preservation trump spur-of-the-moment reactions. It's much harder to deep-six elements of collections from IRL libraries.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#139

Post by bobthepanda » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 4:37 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #79

BurningFrog wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me steelman that argument. Libraries were invented because information was only available on printed (or hand written) books, which were very expensive and scarce resources. Now information can be available almost literally for free and instantly, to anywhere. If the institutional inertia of libraries didn't exist today, would they really be invented as they are? https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Steel_man

We live in a fundamentally broken society today where rent-seekers want to break it further. No libraries would never be invented today. People like Carnegie who thrived in the industrial revolution recognized that and understood that education and social evolution was the path to prosperity and peace. When he studied recent history in his day, he probably pondered the decades of chaos and suffering kicked off by the…

> No libraries would never be invented today.

They did reinvent them, but in the spirit of the times they're mostly located in neighborhoods that are already more educated, more wealthy, and already have public library access.

https://www.treehugger.com/culture/little-free-libraries-rai...

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#140

Post by jeffrogers » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 4:38 PM UTC

Libraries cache significant bits of history, especially local history. This history conatins source material not found anywhere else. The Internet is amazing, but Internet companies have no incentive to retain our history in perpetuity. All others benefits aside, this is enough to justify libraries in every community.