A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards • Hacker News Board

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#131

Post by ghaff » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 4:53 PM UTC

mwcampbell wrote: post #121

laurieg wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is definitely a big factor. When you look at a Japanese computer keyboard [1] you might see lots of Japanese characters on the keys. Almost nobody actually uses these to type. Instead, if you want a か(ka) character then you type k,a on the familiar qwerty keys. These phonetic characters then get converted into the more complex Chinese-origin characters as you go along, allowing you to disambiguate homophones. Th…

> Cast your mind back to when you first encountered a computer keyboard. I remember hunting for seconds to find letters in this unfamiliar arrangement. How early did you learn to type? As an American born in 1980, I learned in first grade, and I don't remember it being a struggle. So maybe it's really important to learn early. FWIW, I'm visually impaired, so looking at the keyboard wasn't a practical option.

Conversely I was born about 20 years earlier and I didn’t touch a keyboard until I was a senior in high school.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#132

Post by greglindahl » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 4:54 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #93

ModernMech wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to write my reports on a type writer. A smartphone would have been a dream come true back then.

But didn't you write a longhand draft first? Or at least longhand outlines?

When I first got a typewriter, I wrote shortish papers in 2 drafts on the typewriter. The outline was in my head, and "editing" was staring at the first draft and rearranging them as I typed the second and final version.

You probably use a different technique.

I changed how I did things a year later when I started typesetting papers in TeX.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#133

Post by userbinator » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 4:57 PM UTC

21 wrote: post #16

nickserv wrote: post #9

Do your children a favor and get them a "real" computer with keyboard and mouse, instead of a tablet. I've found it helps with several things. For one, I've seen children accustomed to using touch interfaces blurring the line between physical and virtual, i.e swiping at physical objects like books, photos, even walls. I've not seen this behavior with those used to non touch interfaces. Also, learning to use a keyboar…

> I've seen children accustomed to using touch interfaces blurring the line between physical and virtual, i.e swiping at physical objects like books, photos, even walls. I've not seen this behavior with those used to non touch interfaces. Why do you think this is a bad think? This is how kids learn how the world works, by trying the same thing in different contexts, like how small children put everything in their mou…

I don't think that making information access easier is ever a bad think.

Except when it decreases learning and perseverance, and deemphasises the benefit of careful thinking. The term 'spoonfeeding' is very relevant here.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#134

Post by laurieg » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 5:00 PM UTC

mwcampbell wrote: post #121

laurieg wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is definitely a big factor. When you look at a Japanese computer keyboard [1] you might see lots of Japanese characters on the keys. Almost nobody actually uses these to type. Instead, if you want a か(ka) character then you type k,a on the familiar qwerty keys. These phonetic characters then get converted into the more complex Chinese-origin characters as you go along, allowing you to disambiguate homophones. Th…

> Cast your mind back to when you first encountered a computer keyboard. I remember hunting for seconds to find letters in this unfamiliar arrangement. How early did you learn to type? As an American born in 1980, I learned in first grade, and I don't remember it being a struggle. So maybe it's really important to learn early. FWIW, I'm visually impaired, so looking at the keyboard wasn't a practical option.

My family got our first computer when I was about 8. I didn't learn to touch type till I was sixteen, but by then I had a really good sense of where all the the keys were. I distinctly remember hunting for letters. (but then again I remember not being able to spell basic words, so perhaps I'm the outlier).

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#135

Post by innocenat » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 5:00 PM UTC

delroth wrote: post #101

innocenat wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why it's so sad this[0] 2016 Google April's Fool stays an April's Fool 0: https://www.google.co.jp/ime/furikku/

What do you mean, "stays an April's Fool"? There are circuit schematics as well as software for it, all available under an open source license: https://github.com/google/mozc-devices/tree/master/mozc-furi...

There's no commercial product? I'd love to be proven wrong though.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#136

Post by jpindar » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 5:02 PM UTC

radicaldreamer wrote: post #48

codingdave wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the age of the child. A toddler who is still exploring the world is one thing. A 14 year old who swipes at a book is a problem. (I don't know the age of the children from these anecdotes.) On the other hand, a toddler who explores the world as if it is a touch screen has been given way too much time on a touch screen. So there is definitely a problem there.

I highly doubt you'll find a 14 year old who swipes at a book... kids very quickly learn context and rules of physics. It's much harder when some screens are touch screens and some are not, however, but I see adults trying to swipe non-touch screens all the time (mall displays, ads, iMacs etc.)

Try being an engineer who works with oscilloscopes and such. Some of them have touch screens with the buttons along the edges of the screen, and some have softkeys so the GUI looks exactly the same, but you press the buttons next to the screen.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#137

Post by zencash » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 5:04 PM UTC

I think it will take time, keyboard, when first encounters can be hard to use, saying that, younger people these days have access to a keyboard almost 24/7 whether it be iPads or mobiles that they use.

I'd like to see how kids of this generation can manage using a franking machine [1] or even a photocopier.

Our currently generation 25-40 used floppy disks at some point, now it's just an icon on your software suite [2]. Will this be the case for keyboard in 10 years time? Will the physical version be needed?

[1] https://frankingmachinecompare.co.uk/what-is-franking-machin... [2] https://www.hanselman.com/blog/TheFloppyDiskMeansSaveAnd14Ot...

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#138

Post by userbinator » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 5:04 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #50

api wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even more important is the nature of PCs vs mobile devices. The mobile platform is designed to commoditize the user and create a stark division between users on one side and content and software creators on the other. You can't easily create anything of any substance on a mobile device and the ecosystem discourages it by e.g. treating user data as unimportant. PCs were designed to be devices for people to create thin…

PCs were designed to be devices for people to create things. I think you have an idealized view of how most people use PCs. Even during the first era of PCs in the 80s, most kids used them for playing games. By the mid 90s, it was all about games and “multimedia” on CDs. Then Facebook and social media games. The geeks that looked forward to InCider, Nybble, and whatever the offshoot computer mag from 3-2-1 Contact we…

The geeks that looked forward to InCider, Nybble, and whatever the offshoot computer mag from 3-2-1 Contact were and typed BASIC programs in were the minority.

But if you look at the PC magazines from the late 80s/early 90s, magazines not even oriented at "developers" but more "power users", you'll find huge chunks of content devoted to programming --- not just BASIC, but Asm (DOS's DEBUG command was the preferred method of creating small utilities), undocumented features, controlling hardware, and the like. Programming was viewed more as a progression/spectrum from novice -> power user -> programmer, with the result that a lot of users knew the basic concepts of how computers worked and would not have much trouble making little modifications to the Asm listings they found in order to customise them to their needs.

Contrast this with the locked-down walled-garden ecosystems where you can't even easily control the behaviour of, much less write programs for, on the device you bought!

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#139

Post by laurieg » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 5:06 PM UTC

Noumenon72 wrote: post #70

jdietrich wrote: post #45

It's worth bearing in mind that the source is Japanese. All input methods for the Japanese language are a compromise. Inputting kanji on a physical keyboard is nowhere near as fluid as inputting Latin characters - you're constantly toggling between inputting kana and selecting the kanji options presented by the IME. The prediction and correction technologies of smartphone keyboards are a very good match for kanji and…

That's fascinating. Is the video representative of texting speed, or is this the fastest human in the world? Are they making choices that would take effort in a different system, or just clicking the next suggested letter?

In my experience the prediction on computers and smartphones is very good for everyday use when inputting Japanese. You do have to make choices of what kanji to use but often you're aware of the homophone confusion as you write (think about writing "they're", "their" and "there") so it's easy to get the hang of.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#140

Post by culot » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 5:07 PM UTC

radicaldreamer wrote: post #48

codingdave wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the age of the child. A toddler who is still exploring the world is one thing. A 14 year old who swipes at a book is a problem. (I don't know the age of the children from these anecdotes.) On the other hand, a toddler who explores the world as if it is a touch screen has been given way too much time on a touch screen. So there is definitely a problem there.

I highly doubt you'll find a 14 year old who swipes at a book... kids very quickly learn context and rules of physics. It's much harder when some screens are touch screens and some are not, however, but I see adults trying to swipe non-touch screens all the time (mall displays, ads, iMacs etc.)

I've recently moved from reading mostly actual books to using e-books. Now when reading physical books I sometimes find myself trying to pinch zoom or select text with my finger. I am 40 years old.