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Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

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Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#131

Post by woolvalley »

yawn_010101 wrote: post #47

Having interfaced with Apple in a different way (apart from owning a new MBP and an iPhone X) I'd say the issue is, and continues to be, growing pains. They're certainly losing the lead in software engineer talent (giving it away to whom, I'm not sure). But the single most horrible experience I've had with Apple in the last year was trying to get software published on the App Store. That's a department that's so larg…

I wouldn't really say those are the reasons why.

The app store and code signing have been fairly bureaucratic to deal with from day one. It's actually improved compared to the initial years from turn around times measuring in a day or two vs a week or two. I remember doing such tricks such as resubmitting the same binary and it getting passed. It really is a dice roll.

Compile times comes from swift and promoting it too early because it was too immature. If you write your code in objective-c, your fast compile times will come back. Swift compile times have been improving as time goes on.

They also don't pay as well compared to google or facebook. But even then I think it's more a management thing, since they determine the priorities in software dev.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#132

Post by monktastic1 »

ehnto wrote: post #119
monktastic1 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why mention gender at all? Does anyone call out a "young male manager" in such a story? Not saying OP did this, but one can imagine using adjectives to hint at competence or lack thereof here. FWIW I have no dog in this race. Parent comment just got me thinking.

People do it when subconsciously or consciously trying to paint a picture with stereotypes. So if someone wanted to illustrate they were talking about a testosterone filled ego driven 20 something, they might include the term young male manager in their descriptor. Is it right or wrong? Probably not great. I don't do it. But I get how it happens. Probably not nefarious, just a little tonedeaf.

True -- though when I think about it, I imagine them using a more specific male adjective like "bro" or "dude." "Young male manager" would have triggered a "why are they mentioning male?" and yet "female" slipped under my radar until another comment called it out.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#133

Post by bdcravens »

greglindahl wrote: post #62
dguaraglia wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MacBook Pro users and MacBook users generally don't overlap. It's fine if you want a super-light, super-thin ultramobiles, but it makes little sense to compromise the Pro's usability in the name of thinness. I've been a Mac user for the last 7 years and for the first time I'm getting a non-Mac computer because the MacBook Pro is no longer attractive. It's a shame, because I have invested a significant amount of time…

Are you sure about that? When I work at my desk I use a dock and some monitors, and all the heavy lifting is on a remote server. I suppose there could be a selection effect for workers whose employers force them to work solely on their laptop, but is that common? If you look at derefr's comment, he appears to work like I do.

Early 2017 I tried moving to the 12" Macbook. Similar with external monitors, keyboard, mouse. I just found myself making way too many compromises.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#134

Post by eric-hu »

manigandham wrote: post #111
_hardwaregeek wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On one hand I'm inclined to agree with you. Thin is not always better. On the other hand I'm holding my 3 pound Macbook Pro comfortably and easily. It's light enough that I don't have to think about slipping it into my day bag (something I did think about with the previous iteration) and thin enough to easily grip with one hand and walk around. When I was traveling, there wasn't even a question about whether I would…

You wouldn't notice if it was 5lbs either, the human body is much more capable than that unless we're talking about small children. People routinely carry much bigger and heavier things. Perhaps if it was still a netbook/macbook air product then it would make sense, but we also have iphones and ipads now which actually seem to be getting bigger so there's no reason why the most mobile powerful computing device must b…

I own a 2012 MacBook pro 15' and work gave me a 2016. The difference is about 1.5 pounds, going from 5.6 pounds to 4 pounds. The difference is big enough that I've slowly started using my work laptop for most of my personal needs too, even though I initially wanted to keep my work laptop clean of unnecessary personal data.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#135

Post by syshax »

foxh0und wrote: post #90
solomatov wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO, 2012 Retina and its updates were masterpieces of hardware design. I wish they continue producing them with more up to date hardware.

Loved my 2012 Retina. It served me all through a Comp Sci degree, and has now gone to friend who is still studying.

Still using mine ($1999 model) and having a hard time justifying a replacement - especially with all the consternation about the keyboard.

I'm thinking about upgrading when they announce a 6 core, but I'd like to see the keyboard addressed - and a 4k retina screen would be a nice touch.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#136

Post by dschoppe »

yesimahuman wrote: post #80
spyckie2 wrote: post #52

This is NOT a big issue for consumers. Apple is great at keeping customers happy, their 4 year warranty extension for replacing the keyboard shows this. This IS a business issue. It has a quantifiable effect on profit margins for Apple's macbook, and I would look at it as an investor and see if it effects Apple's valuation in the short and long run. The Note 7 is a fantastic comparison - the complete recall did not h…

Not mentioned in this article is how many people also dislike the feel of the keyboard. Add that to risking an out of commission work machine and it’s a big deal for consumers.

Thanks for mentioning this. I much prefer the older style keyboard.

I used to split my work time coding at my desk and at a "comfortable" location (couch, chair, etc), but the thought of using the new MBP keyboard has me working almost exclusively at my desk with external keyboard.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#137

Post by ashishb »

I wrote about my experience while looking for a personal laptop in 2013: https://ashishb.net/tech/the-weird-state-of-laptop-industry/ Little has changed since then. There is still a considerable gap, and no one is building a developer laptop. What surprises me is the amount of energy Google is pouring into Chromebooks, they could have made an excellent (GCP-integrated?) developer laptop instead. For backend engineers to front-end engineers to mobile developers, it could have become the defacto developer machine - provided the Wi-Fi, battery, and sleep/wake-up handling is as good as Macbooks.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#139

Post by resonious »

mushufasa wrote: post #68
acomjean wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they'll gradually improve the keyboard. It won't be great but it will be good enough. like the "don't hold it that way" antenna gate problem and the phone bending problems.. They'll fix.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone_4#Antenna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone_6#Chassis_bending Honestly, its hard to get off the mac ecosystem though. I have a macbook pro, and am starting to look at linux laptops. Th…

System 76 (the small linux-only hardware manufacturer) just refreshed their Oryx Pro last month, which looks pretty capable and looks from afar to be really good build quality. https://system76.com/laptops/oryx I haven't found many/any reviews of it since the refresh -- does anyone on HN have one who can attest?

I have a new Oryx Pro. I'm not an expert on laptop build quality but to me the Oryx Pro looks and feels great. It is in fact a Clevo P955ER, which I know I could get for cheaper, but personally I want to support System 76's selling and supporting Linux laptops. I'd actually be interested to see if a straight-up Clevo P955ER with Pop!_OS installed is any more or less stable than an Oryx Pro.

Anyways here are my thoughts:

Good things: - Keyboard is pleasant to use (for me) - Trackpad feels good (not as good as Apple's trackpads but much better than most non-Apple ones) - Desktop-level performance - No Linux jankiness -- everything has just worked for me so far on Pop!_OS - Battery life is not as terrible as I thought it'd be on Intel graphics (~5 hours depending on what you're doing. I haven't tested this too thoroughly)

Complaints: - Need to reboot to switch between Nvidia and Intel graphics - Fans are always audible on Nvidia graphics no matter what you're doing - Nvidia graphics are required in order to use any external displays - Battery life is horrible on Nvidia graphics, so you basically have to switch graphics then shut down before unplugging from an external monitor if you plan on using it on-the-go

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#140

Post by jimmaswell »

_hardwaregeek wrote: post #103
manigandham wrote: post #79

Apple biggest UX failures always stem from putting form before function. There is a lower limit to thinness/lightness before consumers just don't care, and it was passed long ago. There was great progress made with the unibody Macbook Pros and the Macbook Airs but these latest models are so thin that it's actually annoying and leads to issues like poor battery life, lack of repair-ability, and malfunctioning keyboard…

On one hand I'm inclined to agree with you. Thin is not always better. On the other hand I'm holding my 3 pound Macbook Pro comfortably and easily. It's light enough that I don't have to think about slipping it into my day bag (something I did think about with the previous iteration) and thin enough to easily grip with one hand and walk around. When I was traveling, there wasn't even a question about whether I would…

> Something that you can always carry on you, that you can pop open in short notice and quickly slip back into your bag when no longer needed.

My ~5lb Windows one (with 1lb charger) feels the same. I've never had any of the concerns mentioned with it either.

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