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Netflix and Alphabet will need to become ISPs, fast

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Re: Netflix and Alphabet will need to become ISPs, fast

#131

Post by brad0 »

pascalxus wrote: post #5

This the end of innovation in online videos: "When companies like Netflix, which today closed with a market cap of almost $158 billion, can’t necessarily get enough negotiating power to ensure that consumers have direct access to them, no startup can ever hope to compete. America may believe in its entrepreneurs, but its competition laws have done nothing to keep the terrain open for them. Those implications are just…

I could see a revival in P2P tech for doing real time video.

Who knows, maybe we'll build local networks off the public internet.

Re: Netflix and Alphabet will need to become ISPs, fast

#132

Post by vertexFarm »

Miredly wrote: post #124
ethbro wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the FCC really wanted to promote competition instead of profits, they could mandate nationwide access to utility poles & shared conduit. As well as making exclusive franchise agreements illegal.

I still don't really understand how exclusive franchise agreements /aren't/ illegal, given antitrust laws.

Through insane amounts of regulatory capture. You could hardly hope to get government under greater private control with an overwhelming military coup.

We've gone far beyond reducing regulation to ensure that innovation is possible--we've restructured regulation to ensure that doing business is practical only for the major industry players who now write our legislation.

Re: Netflix and Alphabet will need to become ISPs, fast

#133

Post by AtlasBarfed »

spruciefic399 wrote: post #56

Another strategy to this (not exclusive of other strategies) is to encourage municipal ISPs, or even go further and roll out federal ISP infrastructure ala the federal highway system. I've always thought that this would be well within the rubric of the USPS. The constitutional mandate for a postal service was drafted at a time when the internet could not have been conceived of. I would argue that the intent of the co…

This could be done even at a block association level with 5G/wifi or maybe even 4G.

4G/5G/Wifi is critical to undermining the incumbent ISPs. Urban and heavy to medium suburban rollout could be rapid.

Perhaps google should buy T-Mobile to get access to cell towers as a start... take the licenses from Nextel/Sprint for ISP-level data delivery, and keep T-Mobile for regular coverage.

Of course, I haven't tracked the status of T-Mobile / Nextel / Sprint's spectrum rights in a long time.

But google or a consortium could provide turnkey solutions to doing block / neighborhood / community / village / city wireless ISP that actually works.

And provide the legal backing when the prolific army of telecom lawyers come knocking to shake down smaller operations.

Or balloons. Weren't there supposed to be balloons?

Re: Netflix and Alphabet will need to become ISPs, fast

#134

Post by VikingCoder »

snowwrestler wrote: post #75
spruciefic399 wrote: post #56

Another strategy to this (not exclusive of other strategies) is to encourage municipal ISPs, or even go further and roll out federal ISP infrastructure ala the federal highway system. I've always thought that this would be well within the rubric of the USPS. The constitutional mandate for a postal service was drafted at a time when the internet could not have been conceived of. I would argue that the intent of the co…

The next step beyond the mail was the telegraph and then the telephone. Those were built out by private companies, but operated under a regulatory regime called "common carrier," which protected the network owner from liability so long as it charged and carried traffic from all parties equally. These days, that concept is called "net neutrality" in the context of the Internet, and I suppose you may have heard it ment…

Private industry is better at profit.

It's open for discussion whether government is better at providing essential services like healthcare, water, fire, police, electricity, and internet. I assert that it is, but I respect different views.

Re: Netflix and Alphabet will need to become ISPs, fast

#135

Post by acdha »

bjornsing wrote: post #81

I wonder if a bunch of Internet companies (Netflix, Alphabet, etc) could gang up and collectively block an ISP...? Could give them quite interesting leverage in negotiations.

They don’t even need to do that: just making e.g. Netflix or YouTube display a message like “Your experience is bad right now because your ISP is trying to double-charge for your traffic. Click here to call them…” would get an enormous amount of leverage.

Re: Netflix and Alphabet will need to become ISPs, fast

#136

Post by at-fates-hands »

lovich wrote: post #104
snowwrestler wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The next step beyond the mail was the telegraph and then the telephone. Those were built out by private companies, but operated under a regulatory regime called "common carrier," which protected the network owner from liability so long as it charged and carried traffic from all parties equally. These days, that concept is called "net neutrality" in the context of the Internet, and I suppose you may have heard it ment…

Cubans drive 50 year old cars because their closest neighbor, who is also a superpower, has been enforcing sanctions on them for decades. It's disenguous to try and measure how a system works then another party is putting their foot on the scale. As for private buildouts being better than government funded infrastructure, that is only true as long as profit is your single measure of "better". When it comes to service…

>> Cubans drive 50 year old cars because their closest neighbor, who is also a superpower, has been enforcing sanctions on them for decades. It's disenguous to try and measure how a system works then another party is putting their foot on the scale.

There are a myriad of reasons for the embargo on Cuba. Let's not sugar coat this fact just to use it as an example of "American imperialism".

The reason they drive classic cars has nothing to do with the embargo:

After Fidel Castro assumed power in 1959, he imposed a new law that prevented anyone without government permission from importing foreign automobiles. That turned Cuba into a car museum in the making, sealing the island off from the automotive future.

http://time.com/money/3640018/cuba-classic-cars/

You should also keep in mind it was possible to get a new car imported, but you needed government permission to do so. This meant only the rich, celebrities and professional athletes were allowed to do so, keeping the majority of the population fending for themselves to keep their old decaying cars alive and working.

Re: Netflix and Alphabet will need to become ISPs, fast

#137

Post by cf498 »

spruciefic399 wrote: post #89
cwp wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, take away right of way to private ISPs, and let citizens and municipalities charge arbitrary amounts for anything going over their property. That would make private ISPs go away.

Perhaps. I'd prefer it not to--I'd rather have an ecosystem with private and public competition, and one with net neutrality regulation. But it seems to me the discussion is generally really lopsided, with little to no acknowledgment of what ISPs get from the public. If the ISPs really want unfettered competition, then I say fine--but I think, as you say, if we really took competition seriously the consequences would…

Private public doesnt work, its even worse then a market economy. Only public providers will bring internet to people further and further away from main cities, while private companies will focus on the densest areas of the biggest cities.

We have all of that in Germany already. It doesnt work, laying fiberglass or even copper outside of major cities is just not a reasonable thing to do in a market economy. Same as its not worth while to send a postmen every day, or even every week, to a small village. This is something that needs to be financed through a shared burden, otherwise you have the situation, that large part of your country dont have DSL yet. With private companies siphoning of easily provided customers, the public is stuck with a gigantic burden to provide the absolut minimum to people.

Re: Netflix and Alphabet will need to become ISPs, fast

#138

Post by martinald »

DenisM wrote: post #103
martinald wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't get why people think this is possible. Even with microcells and loads of spectrum, you might be able to get 2gigabit/sec of internet per cell, which would be enough for perhaps a couple hundred streams (not including all the other internet services people require all the time). Considering most cells right now serve thousands if not tens of thousands of devices, there is simply no way that wireless bro…

If there is more demand for cell service the cell companies will build more towers. Lower the power levels and use higher frequency bands to reduce interference. By your numbers, 200 clients x $50/mo $10k revenue per mo for a tower. A new cell tower costs $150k, so it pays for itself in 15 months.

It can take years in the UK to add a new cell tower. Apply to the local govt for planning, then more applications to dig the road up for fibre. And then you need a power connection which often aren't trivial or quick to get. $150k sounds unbelievably low.

Re: Netflix and Alphabet will need to become ISPs, fast

#139

Post by Someone1234 »

spruciefic399 wrote: post #56

Another strategy to this (not exclusive of other strategies) is to encourage municipal ISPs, or even go further and roll out federal ISP infrastructure ala the federal highway system. I've always thought that this would be well within the rubric of the USPS. The constitutional mandate for a postal service was drafted at a time when the internet could not have been conceived of. I would argue that the intent of the co…

A better approach might be a government managed last mile (i.e. cable from a central data center to your home/business), but not the ISP itself.

That way ISPs can continue to compete for your business, but the market would be significantly less restrictive because the ISP only needs physical equipment at the data center and upstream of it.

The biggest thing stopping ISP competition today is that local markets don't want the road dug up ten times to lay different cables. So instead lay them a single time, and re-sell access.

The ISPs would pay a fee to use the government cables from the data center to the end user (and equipment). That fee would be used to expand and maintain the network.

Other countries have done this with huge success. It wouldn't even put ISPs out of business, they can use this network just like their competitors.

Re: Netflix and Alphabet will need to become ISPs, fast

#140

Post by lotsofpulp »

aylmao wrote: post #67
lotsofpulp wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's inevitable with the efficiencies brought by technology. You need fewer and fewer middlemen, and so you end up going vertical.

If anything this makes things more inefficient, because I bet a lot of core infrastructure will have to be laid out many times over.

It doesn't seem to be enough to offset the gains from the efficiency of scaling horizontally. Each product or service, when provided or assisted by computers, requires fewer and fewer humans which are the most difficult to scale up, so an organization can set that up and then move up and down their supply chain. It might be a temporary benefit though, because once it's big player vs big player they won't be able to easily extract value (or one of them will kill the other and get even bigger, which is bad for the rest).
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