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Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

nytimes.com

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Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#131

Post by walrus01 »

jenga22 wrote: post #129
walrus01 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whilen I entirely agree with your point, I don't think that a comparison between the Apple and Twitter is suitable. One is a company that publishes an operating system, which is locked down and requires software installation through their Monopoly App Store ( which I find highly distasteful), the other one is a web-based social media thing. iOS as a product is in no way similar to twitter.

It's the same thing. iOS is controlled by Apple. Twitter's API is controlled by Twitter. Both invite developers to develop on their platform so they can reap the benefit of increased user functionality.

An API and an operating system that runs on bare metal are in no way similar. One has a bootloader, a kernel, a filesystem, etc. The other is just a set of apis. The freedom to run your own choice of software on the OS that you boot on the hardware you own is important. It's a very different philosophical choice from being able to, or not being able to make use of one company's social media publishing API via https.

If my operating system has a rootkit or APT I am boned. If twitter is hacked I couldn't give a fuck, it doesn't affect my equipment or how I use my computers.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#132

Post by djrogers »

erikb wrote: post #45
laveur wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IF they really are not letting them update I would at least expect a rejection letter from Apple as evidence.

Why? If they make it so obvious of course there will be outrage. What everybody with some brains would actually do is slow down the approval process and really look for all kinds of unimportant small details that the update doesn't fulfill "yet".

Why? That still makes no sense - banning updates globally is not even what Russia wants, let alone a reasonable goal.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#133

Post by jenga22 »

walrus01 wrote: post #131
jenga22 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the same thing. iOS is controlled by Apple. Twitter's API is controlled by Twitter. Both invite developers to develop on their platform so they can reap the benefit of increased user functionality.

An API and an operating system that runs on bare metal are in no way similar. One has a bootloader, a kernel, a filesystem, etc. The other is just a set of apis. The freedom to run your own choice of software on the OS that you boot on the hardware you own is important. It's a very different philosophical choice from being able to, or not being able to make use of one company's social media publishing API via https.…

Sure, one is an operating system and one is an API. In the literal sense you are correct.

However, You're completely arguing a point that is different from what the entire discussion is about. We're talking about proprietary control points. The iOS operating system is proprietary and the App store dictates who and who can't publish on it.

The same is the case with Twitter. It has APIs and they control who and who can't use them to make apps.

Both companies have invited developers to make apps. Both companies have benefited from having those apps make their services/devices useful.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#134

Post by Scene_Cast2 »

sandov wrote: post #116
veidr wrote: post #110

This is a fundamental problem with the single DRM-enforced app store model that Apple innovated, and which has been widely copied and lauded. Once you implement that, you have to toady up to whatever governments exist, including oppressive/murderous regimes, to be in their markets. If your ecosystem is just console video games, say, it's not that big of a deal; you have to either censor some games or don't enter cert…

This is why we must eradicate proprietary software from our general purpose computers, because computers are the single most powerful weapon we have for freedom and self-improvement. It doesn't matter too much if your videogame console is closed source, but it matters a lot if the software you use to read books, to write, to communicate with people is closed source. Apple isn't going to do it, Google isn't going to d…

There are three ways of slicing the problem: the technical capability of loading whatever apps you want, the legal ability to do so, and the ecosystem / game theoretical (is it a reasonable way of doing things - e.g. living without gapps is possible but very hard in practice).

Back when Stallman outlined the distinction between proprietary vs open, he meant all of the above in spirit, but never really addressed the hosting and server-side side of things. I think it's currently still a weak spot in his philosophy. Open-source software doesn't truly solve the server-side if your phone has a hardcoded "ax.itunes.apple.com" - in theory, you could modify & recompile & host your own, but it wouldn't be a first-class-citizen thing. Also, consider e.g. if Apple's stack was open but highly customized - you needed a team of engineers and a swath of servers to simply get a clone up and running. Again, not impossible, but I don't think open-source is only a part of the solution.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#135

Post by danShumway »

cookiecaper wrote: post #118
danShumway wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kind of don't understand this. Nobody is forcing anyone to use sideloading. Heck, Android phones by default have sideloading turned off in the settings so you can't even accidentally do it without going through a bunch of warnings. Unless Android phones have an extra side-channel I don't know about, I just can't imagine someone sideloading an app on one of them unless they explicitly have decided the benefits outwe…

Like most security features that can be trivially disabled, if it's simple to turn it off, bad actors will just say "OK, first click 'Turn this off', just click 'Yes' on all the mumbo-jumbo that comes up, and then you can use our software that will give you [free money/a better love life/etc]". Many people who would've gotten far enough to install the app in the first place will be able to follow the prompts to disab…

But again, if moderated app stores are good enough for the average user, why are they going through Amazon's tutorial to begin with? Why isn't Amazon on the official channel?

It feels circular to me: "Most users are better served by a gatekeeper" -> "Because if users had a choice to go outside the system they would" -> "Therefore the gatekeeper must be mandatory" -> "Because most users are better served by a gatekeeper".

At what point do we have to step back and say, "maybe users just don't want gatekeepers?" Especially bearing in mind that, again, anyone who actually did want a gatekeeper could still use one and be fully protected.

We're assuming that every casual user who sideloads an app on Android is doing it because they're uneducated. What if they're not? What if they just feel like it's an acceptable risk?

What if the reason we can't trust the average user to stay in a moderated system is that moderated systems are not scalable, adaptable, or reliable enough to meet the needs of even an average user?

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#136

Post by dannyw »

masonlee wrote: post #78

Does this dispute imply that Apple backdoors its own iMessage end-to-end encryption on states' request?

The new iMessages in the Cloud claims to be 'end to end encrypted', which is true, but omit the fact that a copy of the key is stored with Apple in your iCloud backup...

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303

"Messages in iCloud also uses end-to-end encryption. If you have iCloud Backup turned on, a copy of the key protecting your Messages is included in your backup"

Given that almost everyone has iCloud backup enabled, messages are certainly retrievable with a simple court order.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#137

Post by walrus01 »

jenga22 wrote: post #133
walrus01 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An API and an operating system that runs on bare metal are in no way similar. One has a bootloader, a kernel, a filesystem, etc. The other is just a set of apis. The freedom to run your own choice of software on the OS that you boot on the hardware you own is important. It's a very different philosophical choice from being able to, or not being able to make use of one company's social media publishing API via https.…

Sure, one is an operating system and one is an API. In the literal sense you are correct. However, You're completely arguing a point that is different from what the entire discussion is about. We're talking about proprietary control points. The iOS operating system is proprietary and the App store dictates who and who can't publish on it. The same is the case with Twitter. It has APIs and they control who and who can…

I guess what I am trying to say is that having a walled garden operating system is a magnitude worse than a walled garden social media API. Mostly because the OS is the gatekeeper to literally everything else. Twitter is a gatekeeper to hearing the latest ramblings of a Kardashian.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#138

Post by dannyw »

thotaway wrote: post #89

Theory 1: It’s because Russia, a market with a very small iOS user base, can pressure Apple into doing what it wants. Theory 2: It’s because Telegram raised more than a billion dollars for a virtual currency that does an end-run around Apple’s in-app payments. Based on Apple’s past actions, which one is more likely?

The ICO didn't mention anything about doing an end-run around IAPs, and even so, such functionality isn't integrated in the app.

How can Apple justify penalising something not in an app? Why is the Kindle app still up, despite the fact that Kindle ebooks don't go through IAP?

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#139

Post by eridius »

amatecha wrote: post #84
masonlee wrote: post #78

Does this dispute imply that Apple backdoors its own iMessage end-to-end encryption on states' request?

It's entirely possible, I'd speculate. I once called Apple tech support for help with my iPhone. So they could see what was going on right on my phone, they were able to remotely request a "screen sharing" session, which I had to click "Allow" on a dialog on my phone to approve. One can imagine that such an approval dialog is not actually required in a technical sense, and _theoretically_ a screen share could be remo…

> One can imagine that such an approval dialog is not actually required in a technical sense, and _theoretically_ a screen share could be remotely started without any such dialog/notification.

Well I mean, they wrote the OS so they can theoretically have it do whatever they want. But there's an extremely high probability that the way the OS is written, they cannot remotely trigger screen sharing without the user confirming it first.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#140

Post by eridius »

dannyw wrote: post #136
masonlee wrote: post #78

Does this dispute imply that Apple backdoors its own iMessage end-to-end encryption on states' request?

The new iMessages in the Cloud claims to be 'end to end encrypted', which is true, but omit the fact that a copy of the key is stored with Apple in your iCloud backup... https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 "Messages in iCloud also uses end-to-end encryption. If you have iCloud Backup turned on, a copy of the key protecting your Messages is included in your backup" Given that almost everyone has iCloud backup ena…

Good to be aware of, but¹ Messages in iCloud is off by default².

¹At least for existing users.

²And almost certainly requires opt-in for new users as well.

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