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As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

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Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#131

Post by jasonvorhe »

jasonvorhe wrote: post #130
daxfohl wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of the k8s founders have left google. Google doesn't use it internally. I'd actually start looking away from gcp at this point for k8s, given google's history of dropping stuff that they're bored with.

Coming from KubeCon Europe, I can confirm that Google is anything but bored from k8s. Google's spring-cleaning has nothing to do with their open source projects. Kubernetes is one of their most widely used open source "products" and the industry is creating an incredible community around it with several big players that could easily jump in to take over project leadership and financing. It is actually a good thing th…

I mean, they just announced a new container runtime called gVisor to further increase security for containerized apps. It's pretty clear they want to be able to offer fully managed multi-tenancy Kubernetes clusters that execute untrusted code.

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#132

Post by netheril96 »

jrs95 wrote: post #88
drej wrote: post #79

It’s always nice when there is some sort of consensus in the industry, however, there is one thing I worry about. Now that there is a usable solution for complex orchestration, many newcomers will consider it the goto solution, regardless of scale. You need nginx and some python scripts? Kubernetes! You have 100 daily visitors? Kubernetes! It’s not really their fault, it’s just a sad consequence of a convenient cloud…

Part of this is also people jumping to microservices when they really have no need for them. When you have less than 5 developers and very little traffic...it's just absurd. But people are doing it anyways. Because "monoliths" are "bad". And honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of these microservice architectures end up totally botched and creating a ton of headaches without delivering much benefit.

Another part is claiming Kubernetes experiences on your resume.

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#133

Post by bonesss »

rubiquity wrote: post #20
atombender wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kubernetes came out of the engineering team at Google. It was created by engineers for engineers. The fact that it's being exploited by enterprise consulting types doesn't change that premise.

I like to believe that nobody creates anything for sole intentions of extracting consulting bucks (there probably are cases of this happening in tech, but I like to be benevolent). So I don't believe Kubernetes was created for that and I don't think that OpenStack was either. But regardless of what the creators want, opportunists see new platforms and want to attach themselves to them. Kubernetes isn't simple. Some o…

> I like to believe that nobody creates anything for sole intentions of extracting consulting bucks

Sharepoint and BizTalk spring to mind... MS Dynamics (or whatever), too.

SAP and other "configuration heavy" systems bring it to another level.

> Most of the people adopting Kubernetes probably don't need it

If they geniunely don't need it then it will bite the in the ass.

On the other side: the absolute nightmare hodge-podge of half-baked non-integrated solutions that Kubernetes has murdered, and the promises it delivers on for cloud-native and cloud-first systems, are major strategic wins with clear ROI...

MS does not profile Google tech without cause. The largest virtualization supplier does not integrate competing Google tech without cause. Amazon is an easier mark here, but: the very fact there is a common, turn-key, orchestration platform across all major cloud providers is massive, and very hard to attribute to developer advocacy.

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#134

Post by bonesss »

yebyen wrote: post #84
outworlder wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has a lot of complexity, but only because it does so much. Thing is, can you point to alternatives which are simpler? I cannot think of any, unless you only have a handful of containers to manage. Even things like AWS's own ECS become difficult to manage as you grow.

> only because it does so much > can you point to alternatives which are simpler Sure, there are plenty of simpler alternatives... as long as you're willing to consider ones that don't do quite as much. (Beware, you'll also need more of them.)

Amen, sister.

The complaints that Kubernetes is "complex" are obviously comparing it to more targeted solutions and ignoring the aggregate system that arises in its place.

If you find a tool with a better fit to the problem, then yay for you do the smart and simple thing. In practice, though, for many shops there's a major hodge-podge of almost-there solutions which require much more specialization on much less popular frameworks with much less vendor support to compete with Kubernetes.

Kubernetes did not come into a vacuum: it's disrupted some mature solution ecosystems by being much, much, better.

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#135

Post by bonesss »

hodgesrm wrote: post #66
atombender wrote: post #3

Kubernetes is one of those rare cases where the industry is rallying around a technologically sound platform that emerged from the trenches, and not something that was designed to create jobs for consultants. It's great. Right now, there's a bunch of fairly traditional players such as Red Hat, but none of them are in a position to mess it up. What I'm waiting for, though, is for a big player to do a modern, clean "Ku…

Are you proposing that cloud vendors should do a better job of integrating Kubernetes with underlying infrastructure or are you saying there should be a Kubernetes-only cloud platform? If the former that's clearly desirable; you should be able for instance to set up networking between services without having to worry (much) about how it is implemented. If the latter, I am not so sure (or else I don't understand your…

> A lot of things don't/won't run well on Kubernetes--database management systems are a good example as well as any legacy application, which includes a lot of Windows OS, so you still have to address those.

Not saying I've tried it, but some people are having ok luck pinning RDBMS pods in Kubernetes to specific nodes. It goes a bit against k8s principles, but it makes operational sense.

Kubernetes is baking in windows container support, for some legacy scenarios. More interestingly (and posted on HNs front page today), are solutions that allow independent VMs to be run as though they were k8s pods. This provides hybrid models ideal for legacy packaging and maintenance while moving onto new hardware.

> Kubernetes is not going to rewrite the whole world or implement distributed firewalling, network attached storage, VLANs, etc. So you are always going to have a non-K8s layer under there that is more or less foreign to the Kubernetes model

There will always be some natural impedance between hardware and software...

I think this picture is ripe for improvements though, and we're already seeing the edges of it take shape :)

Kubernetes will be moving towards smarter networking solutions to handle more and better use-cases with better performance (BPF), and is incorporating better network abstractions slowly but surely.

From the under layers: software defined networking (SDN), and kubernetes providers for major virtualization platforms (VMware, for example), have commercial offerings that could readily support integrated or "hyperconverged" operations... Microsegmentation and microservices go hand-in-hand. Empowered by a platform connected with role based access controls top-to-bottom there's a lot of potential to harmonize those distributed firewalling/VLAN needs through the same declarative YAML.

We're not there, yet. We are closer than ever though :)

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#136

Post by pi-squared »

daxfohl wrote: post #86

There needs to be a digitalocean or heroku for containerization. Currently to start a k8s whatever you need to go through various manual rigamaroles and spend a lot of money, or go through the big lockin providers and spend a lot of money. For those of us not backed by venture capital and not charging SV ex-googler rates to our clients, we need something to say "we'll host you on this git push containerization thing,…

Actually DO just announced k8s for later this year: https://blog.digitalocean.com/introducing-digitalocean-kuber...

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#137

Post by bonesss »

daxfohl wrote: post #86

There needs to be a digitalocean or heroku for containerization. Currently to start a k8s whatever you need to go through various manual rigamaroles and spend a lot of money, or go through the big lockin providers and spend a lot of money. For those of us not backed by venture capital and not charging SV ex-googler rates to our clients, we need something to say "we'll host you on this git push containerization thing,…

The Azure Container Instances seems like it's aiming to be a "heroku for containers" -- https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/services/container-instanc...

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#138

Post by ismail-khan »

georgebarnett wrote: post #63
k8sftl wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CoreOS, PXE, bootkube, kubelet, kubectl. And you say it's not complex? I don't think you and I will ever agree on the meaning of that word.

To somebody who understands the function of each of those tools, your statement reads as “grep, sed, awk, perl. And you say Linux isn’t complex?”. I think you’re overestimating complexity based on lack of familiarity.

Who said Linux was simple? :)

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#139

Post by jacques_chester »

lobster_johnson wrote: post #118
jacques_chester wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main repo is the 4th result on Google for me: https://github.com/openshift/origin . In 3rd position is the openshift.org website. I feel like this one is really on you, not Red Hat.

We were talking about openshift.com, though. I didn't realize there were more than one site. Since you're going there: - I didn't even know it was called "OpenShift Origin"! - I don't understand what the differentiation is between the various things called "OpenShift", from having visited the Google links briefly. - Third Google hit ( https://www.redhat.com/en/technologies/cloud-computing/opens... ) does not even men…

I fixated on something else, which was my impression that you were downplaying their engineers and the ability of their engineers to communicate with fellow engineers.

We have a similar mix of CxO-focused and engineer-focused literature. So I guess I felt you were giving us a hard time too.

Edit: and I guess it figures that, since I work for a competing company, I'm primed with some background details on OpenShift.

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#140

Post by SmellyGeekBoy »

bonesss wrote: post #133
rubiquity wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to believe that nobody creates anything for sole intentions of extracting consulting bucks (there probably are cases of this happening in tech, but I like to be benevolent). So I don't believe Kubernetes was created for that and I don't think that OpenStack was either. But regardless of what the creators want, opportunists see new platforms and want to attach themselves to them. Kubernetes isn't simple. Some o…

> I like to believe that nobody creates anything for sole intentions of extracting consulting bucks Sharepoint and BizTalk spring to mind... MS Dynamics (or whatever), too. SAP and other "configuration heavy" systems bring it to another level. > Most of the people adopting Kubernetes probably don't need it If they geniunely don't need it then it will bite the in the ass. On the other side: the absolute nightmare hodg…

> MS Dynamics

Way to trigger my PTSD...

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