Getting Laid Off in Tech: The Myth of Upper Middle Class Security • Hacker News Board

Re: Getting Laid Off in Tech: The Myth of Upper Middle Class Security

#131

Post by benatkin » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 9:42 PM UTC

allannienhuis wrote: post #114

mseebach wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But was the alternative in that case to fire the two employees? It sounds more like the case that they wanted to cut the product. Specifically, in the case of the article, spinning off the redundant employees leaving them in a new firm with no product and no revenue sounds like a cruelly dystopian option. And if the company was willing to put money into it, I'm pretty sure most employees would prefer that as a severa…

Cutting a product often comes with layoffs. The other products may or may not be able to support the staff that were working on the products being cut. Obviously the larger the company is the more likely there are other options aside from layoffs. In this case I expect he might have made a spot for those employees working on a different product, but that's not certain - technologies & skills were different & the vert…

These seem like extremely competent developers. They could have transferred them to more important projects that had less competent developers in them, and let two or more less competent developers go.

Re: Getting Laid Off in Tech: The Myth of Upper Middle Class Security

#132

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 9:45 PM UTC

ynniv wrote: post #85

vinceguidry wrote: post #17

The author of the article is misinformed about the true landscape of wealth and income inequality. The middle class is ultimately defined by the ability and need to build your own safety net. The upper middle class is able to do this with plenty of wealth to spare for luxuries like private schooling for their kids, income security is provided by their network. Just tap your network and find another job. The upper mid…

This is the difference between American and British usage of "[upper] middle class". Americans use it to mean "[upper] middle income", which unfortunately discards much of the understanding conveyed by the British usage.

[deleted]

Re: Getting Laid Off in Tech: The Myth of Upper Middle Class Security

#133

Post by rconti » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 9:46 PM UTC

gojomo wrote: post #52

Author is 22 years old, and was not laid off. But, because some peers were – from Snap, a boom-times high-flyer – he's now facing a crisis-of-confidence, first in himself, and then in what feelings of security might be available from reaching "[t]he upper middle-class, the professional class, that venerable example of American wealth and mobility". Well, of course working for a single hot company at 22 doesn't mean y…

It was an incredibly well-written piece, and I really enjoyed it, but I share the same misgivings you do. It just all felt so incredibly naïve- although, in fairness, we all have to start somewhere.

To most people, the idea of expecting to have a job waiting for you upon graduation because you interviewed in the fall of your senior year is mind-boggling. Most people, I venture to say, are lucky to have a job by graduation. I'd think it's far more normal to start looking around that time and hope to find something by summer.

The proscribed promotion and 'levels' and 'staff software engineer' titles that apparently make one impossible to fire (?) feel like something out of a fantasy. Something, by the way, this piece shares with a piece posted a few days ago about climbing the latter at FaceGoog or something to that effect, and how you're either up or out. It all feels like something out of a foreign country or planet to most of us, I venture to say.

Re: Getting Laid Off in Tech: The Myth of Upper Middle Class Security

#134

Post by keieo29 » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 9:46 PM UTC

toephu2 wrote: post #117

refurb wrote: post #2

Having been laid off due to downsizing, I think everyone should go through it at least once. Sure, the first time will leave you panic stricken, but you'll come out the other side with a lot more clarity about the employee-employer relationship. You are disposable. Even the CEO is disposable (as I've seen many times). Once you realize that, you'll stop the BS about loyalty to your company. It's a business arrangement…

Even Steve Jobs is disposable. How many here remember where they were and what they were doing when they heard Steve Jobs passed away? Almost like being able to recall where you were when 9/11 happened. When I heard of his death I was shocked, I wondered how Apple would survive, how the world for that matter would move on? But sure enough the next day the sun still rose and and the earth still rotated. Today Apple is…

Numerous studies have tried to measure who generates value. Millions of dollars spent on this, cause it seems like an important question right?

The results from what I’ve read have offered no answers. One place spent $20 million trying to answer how much productivity is gained from having email. Nothing.

I suspect it’s like the food industry and fossil fuels: they are selling us on nonsense and hiding the reality.

Economics was the latest long con, like religion before it, the masses buy in hook line and sinker

But yeah we DEFINITELY need to make more phone apps and web apps! Fawk yeah!

Re: Getting Laid Off in Tech: The Myth of Upper Middle Class Security

#135

Post by Rafuino » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 9:46 PM UTC

mcphage wrote: post #116

Rafuino wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be curious to ask you what "tech skills" means. What's demanded by the companies you refer to is likely shifting constantly. If you're not working in the hot stack, you're not going to have job security "prior generations could only have dreamed of."

> If you're not working in the hot stack, you're not going to have job security What do you think happens to all the software written in languages / frameworks after all the hotshot devs have moved on? They still need features and maintenance, and they’re not rewritten nearly as often or as quickly as people want to think.

Totally agree, but I'm not convinced that tech job security is as solid as HN or VCs like to think. I'm trying to get at defining what "tech skills" means. It's such a broad term!

Re: Getting Laid Off in Tech: The Myth of Upper Middle Class Security

#136

Post by AFNobody » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 9:46 PM UTC

replicatorblog wrote: post #30

I'd be curious to ask the author, + Have many of your laid off peers had trouble finding work, post-layoff? + Do you think you'd have a difficult time finding another job if you were laid off? Most people in tech, who are willing to live in one of a half dozen specific cities, have job security prior generations could only have dreamed of. Tech skills are far more portable than a skilled line worker at Ford's River R…

> That's not to say the broader criticism of job security is wrong. I have plenty of 50+ family members that are struggling on the finish line to retirement. Other people in my circle never had a fair shot at the start, but I don't know that there's ever been a better time to be a member of the professional class, even at a mid-skill level.

If you are one of the right sort of people, with the right skills...yes. Many people with degrees never successfully transition into being a full fledged member of the professional class. That is much, much worse than before and the cost of failure is much, much higher than before outside of tech.

2017-2018 are the high point of this particular economic cycle and we are at full employment but that does not mean people have succeeded at the level they have in the past.

> I work at a VC firm and every company struggles with hiring enough talented people. I don't know many, really any, people who are moderately skilled and unable to find work in this environment. That could change if there's a big macro swing.

Can I find work? Yes.

Have I plateaued at my current level of pay and everyone wants to try to pay me 20% less if I change jobs? Yes.

It isn't just "Can I find another job?" but "Can I find a comparable job with the same work life balance, benefits, and financial compensation?"

That is the real fear with the lack of job security for mid-level professionals as they age and don't move into management. Paycuts, relocation to cheaper regions, or work/life balance cuts have to be taken to some degree.

Sure, I'm posting on HN but it is mainly because I work 10+ hour days, 5-6 days a week. I have to break that up somehow.

Re: Getting Laid Off in Tech: The Myth of Upper Middle Class Security

#137

Post by taurath » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 9:48 PM UTC

notabee wrote: post #120

taurath wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both the middle class and upper middle class can and frequently do operate with no "real" safety net, especially before age 40. Those people sending their kids to private school and have a nice house can and are leveraged like crazy, and can't afford a big layoff, economic downturn, or huge emergency medical bills. Upper middle class delineation to me isn't about security, its about being able to scrounge better qual…

This is the link you're referencing, right? I also found it a useful model of how social and economic ranks can substantially but not completely overlap. https://web.archive.org/web/20151006183427/https://michaeloc...

Yeah that was it - I found it a really good primer for starting to think about social class as a construct, however there is a lot more inter-class mingling and subtlety that isn't covered there, which is I think why he eventually took it down, because once you really start to think about it its not that hard to pick apart, and probably doesn't reflect his current views anyway. The simplicity of only "4" ladders leaves out maybe the majority of people, especially in the US. People's and communities values just tend not to fit into those categories, and tends to be more an expression of each person's individual and group experiences.

The idea of alternate ladders based on values, how that ties into money and economics, and how groups can become inaccessible to each other, is a worthwhile and big idea I think to hold onto.

Re: Getting Laid Off in Tech: The Myth of Upper Middle Class Security

#138

Post by wrs » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 9:48 PM UTC

gojomo wrote: post #52

Author is 22 years old, and was not laid off. But, because some peers were – from Snap, a boom-times high-flyer – he's now facing a crisis-of-confidence, first in himself, and then in what feelings of security might be available from reaching "[t]he upper middle-class, the professional class, that venerable example of American wealth and mobility". Well, of course working for a single hot company at 22 doesn't mean y…

Despite the skewed expectations of tech workers due to their high starting salaries, pretty much by definition a 22-year-old cannot be upper-middle class. The most important thing about the "upper class" (in society in general) is not the money, it's the personal networking with the rest of the class. Within the tech industry, the path to security is not chasing salary. It is doing great work, making strong connections to your peers, and aspiring to enter what he calls the "protected class" of Staff Software Engineers who just need to call some friends to find a job. That doesn't happen when you're 22.

Re: Getting Laid Off in Tech: The Myth of Upper Middle Class Security

#139

Post by mevile » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 9:49 PM UTC

Ugh, that layoff process sounded amateurish. Tapping people on the shoulder? So snap basically called in people one at a time leaving people who were not going to get laid off thinking they might for hours? They should have separated everyone at the beginning into two groups, those who were getting laid off and those who weren't so that the people who stay aren't left with such a terrible experience.

After layoffs the company's priority should be to reassure their remaining workers that they're OK because a shocked, shattered workforce is not a productive one. Employees are humans and they should be treated that way, and that should have been their priority. Snap seems terribly run based on this post. If I had experienced this I would be looking for new work. As long as the same people remain in charge who made those bad decisions, more bad decisions lie on the horizon.

Re: Getting Laid Off in Tech: The Myth of Upper Middle Class Security

#140

Post by rconti » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 9:50 PM UTC

trhway wrote: post #5

this is why i don't move out of Bay Area - me and my acquaintances have been through lay offs here at various years, during the booms and busts, and nobody had any significant issues promptly finding a new job (with a salary increase usually :). Compare that to, for example, the next best thing in US tech - when AMZN says come to Seattle i always imagine being laid off from it few years down the road (with a non-comp…

Yeah- I know very few people who lost jobs in '99, even fewer who lost jobs in '08. At least of people who are in tech roles, as opposed to on the periphery. But everything slows down. Everyone stops looking for a better job, people stop quitting and people stop hiring. Hunker down for a year or two, weather the storm, then carry on.