Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street • Hacker News Board

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#131

Post by fabian2k » Mon, Mar 19, 2018, 5:25 PM UTC

Unless this was a situation that was impossible to anticipate and avoid, this looks bad. It would mean that both, the autonomous driving system and the safety driver failed.

Not hitting pedestrians should be close to the top in priority, so while failures of the software are certainly expected during this kind of test, this is one of the worst kinds of failures that should have received a lot of attention before ever putting the vehicles on a public road.

The safety driver failing makes me wonder how well qualified they are, or if there is an issue with staying alert for long times without actually driving the car.

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#132

Post by gamblor956 » Mon, Mar 19, 2018, 5:25 PM UTC

3pt14159 wrote: post #93

Look, I'm all for taking self-driving cars seriously. I've written about how they're effectively WMDs if the software update computer gets owned. I've also frequently commented about the unethical practices that Uber has taken in the past. That being said, let's not over-react. This is a single death. These are going to happen. Right now self-driving cars are essentially teenagers learning how to drive. En mass there…

This didn't need to happen. It's indefensible that it did.

And there's still no proof that self-driving cars are safer than humans when confronted with novel situations, i.e., the situations most likely to result in injuries and fatalities. If anything, the evidence thus far is that self-driving cars are more dangerous than ones driving by humans.

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#133

Post by FeepingCreature » Mon, Mar 19, 2018, 5:25 PM UTC

ambivalents wrote: post #72

avoutthere wrote: post #29

It's a sad reality, but regardless of how many times per day a pedestrian is hit by a human-driven car, such incidents involving self-driving cars will be headline news for years to come.

Having a hard time sympathizing here. It's one thing to fear air travel based on the very few but very publicized plane incidents (considering all the data we have on the safety of air travel). It's another thing to hold these self-driving car companies accountable, considering a) the lack of data and history of such programs, and b) their touted benefit as a safer alternative to human-driven cars.

It's not about sympathy. It's about one question: do they kill fewer or more people than humans per mile?

If they kill fewer people, they can be run by a joint venture of Satan and the Mafia for all I care.

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#134

Post by amelius » Mon, Mar 19, 2018, 5:25 PM UTC

ashleyn wrote: post #6

Uber's self-driving program seems to be one of the most unethical, most poorly-run in the entire industry. There were plenty of reports before warning us of the questionable quality of their research: cars changing lanes suddenly, blowing red lights, and now one finally killed someone. Every prior incident should have been treated as a serious matter. Waymo et al has had none of these issues. Time to revoke their lic…

> Waymo et al has had none of these issues. Time to revoke their licence to test?

I think Alphabet is to blame here too in a sense (or at least the industry as a whole). Why didn't they push for more strict testing rules? It's in their interest too.

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#135

Post by randyrand » Mon, Mar 19, 2018, 5:25 PM UTC

leggomylibro wrote: post #9

FTA: "The Uber vehicle was reportedly driving early Monday when a woman walking outside of the crosswalk was struck. ... Tempe Police says the vehicle was in autonomous mode at the time of the crash and a vehicle operator was also behind the wheel." That's a very bad look; the whole point of self-driving cars is that they can react to unexpected circumstances much more quickly than a human operator, such as when some…

Not bad even a self driving car can stop in time for deer jumping out from behind tree/bush cover.

People still need to look both ways when coming out from behind cars.

I want more details.

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#136

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 19, 2018, 5:25 PM UTC

3pt14159 wrote: post #93

Look, I'm all for taking self-driving cars seriously. I've written about how they're effectively WMDs if the software update computer gets owned. I've also frequently commented about the unethical practices that Uber has taken in the past. That being said, let's not over-react. This is a single death. These are going to happen. Right now self-driving cars are essentially teenagers learning how to drive. En mass there…

[deleted]

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#137

Post by kerkeslager » Mon, Mar 19, 2018, 5:26 PM UTC

conductr wrote: post #87

timmaah wrote: post #32

The video mentions she was on a bike and shows a mangled bicycle. Also the line markings on the street indicate there is a bike lane to the left of a right turn lane. Definitely very bad. https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4369934,-111.9429875,3a,75y,...

Not to be insensitive to the death. But, that bike lane design is just horrible. Are human drivers really known for respecting the "do not cross solid white line" rules? 9/10 drivers that realize at the last moment they need to turn right are going to quickly cross over this bike lane probably without much time to check their blind spot. If I was cycling on this path, I'd want to use the sidewalk and be extra cautiou…

I don't think that's insensitive to the death. It's properly placing (partial) blame on the cause of the accident.

A better design for that intersection would be to keep the bike lane against the sidewalk and the turn lane inside of that, so that they don't cross, and have a "no turn on red" sign, so that the paths of bicyclists and people turning in cars never cross as long as everyone obeys the stoplight and sign.

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#138

Post by iooi » Mon, Mar 19, 2018, 5:26 PM UTC

imh wrote: post #104

iooi wrote: post #14

The second ever [1] fatal car crash involving a self-driving car. This is the first one where a third party is killed. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/01/tesla-dri...

There may be more than that. This one wasn't as heavily covered https://www.mercurynews.com/2016/09/14/second-fatal-crash-ma...

Interesting, apparently there's no way to know if autopilot was enabled or not.

> A Tesla spokesperson said the car in the Chinese wreck was badly damaged and unable to transmit data. “We therefore have no way of knowing whether or not Autopilot was engaged at the time of the crash,” the spokesperson said in a statement.

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#139

Post by chillingeffect » Mon, Mar 19, 2018, 5:26 PM UTC

kerkeslager wrote: post #112

leggomylibro wrote: post #9

FTA: "The Uber vehicle was reportedly driving early Monday when a woman walking outside of the crosswalk was struck. ... Tempe Police says the vehicle was in autonomous mode at the time of the crash and a vehicle operator was also behind the wheel." That's a very bad look; the whole point of self-driving cars is that they can react to unexpected circumstances much more quickly than a human operator, such as when some…

> That's a very bad look; the whole point of self-driving cars is that they can react to unexpected circumstances much more quickly than a human operator, such as someone walking out into the road. Sounds like Uber's platform may not be up to that standard yet, which makes me wonder why they're on public roads. That's an invalid conclusion to draw from this accident. There were 34,439 fatal motor vehicle crashes in t…

1 July 2016 "Tesla driver dies in first fatal autonomous car crash in US"

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2095740-tesla-driver-di...

Re: Self-driving Uber car kills Arizona woman crossing street

#140

Post by lsaferite » Mon, Mar 19, 2018, 5:26 PM UTC

conductr wrote: post #87

timmaah wrote: post #32

The video mentions she was on a bike and shows a mangled bicycle. Also the line markings on the street indicate there is a bike lane to the left of a right turn lane. Definitely very bad. https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4369934,-111.9429875,3a,75y,...

Not to be insensitive to the death. But, that bike lane design is just horrible. Are human drivers really known for respecting the "do not cross solid white line" rules? 9/10 drivers that realize at the last moment they need to turn right are going to quickly cross over this bike lane probably without much time to check their blind spot. If I was cycling on this path, I'd want to use the sidewalk and be extra cautiou…

AZ driving rules language on solid white lines is the same as FL (where I live). They use the words "should not cross", so it's not technically an infraction for a driver to cross a solid white line. I was in an accident once due to someone crossing a solid white while at a light and cutting me off so I'm familiar with the RAW on those lines.