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'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

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Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#131

Post by smcl »

walshemj wrote: post #128
smcl wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By whom? I have not experienced this at all. STEM jobs are by UK standards well paid and would be considered solid respectable to enter by everyone I can think of. Unless you're comparing the salaries in these to those of Bankers ... but that's a whole different kettle of fish, and there's the added complication that Bankers are actually actively disliked by an overwhelming majority of the population.

No actually real science jobs are paid appallingly I know what say the STEM grades in the civil service are paid. And even developers are paid badly when compared to our peers in the states and with other professions in the UK. Compare what google pays in London to what it pays in say Kansas I could buy a house there (Kansas) out if my cash savings You do know that the train driver on my commute to London is paid £60…

That's not a UK thing though - all STEM salaries in the EU are lower than their counterparts in the USA. I don't think this points to an anti-STEM culture specific to the UK.

But that is kind of beside the point - you said they're socially looked down upon. Maybe I derailed it by anticipating you were meaning salaries ... but it sounds like you believe there's some overall anti-STEM sentiment and I honestly cannot think of a time I saw anything like this.

I haven't heard of the idea that the UK is a place to get good cheap engineers. I have heard of Southern Europe, Eastern Europe and India talked about this way but never the UK. Good maybe, but certainly not cheap.

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#132

Post by WorldMaker »

_ah wrote: post #11
Kuiper wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially when you consider that most supermarket labels will also include the "price per unit weight" or "price per unit volume" on the shelf with a smaller font, it becomes trivially easy to compare which bottle of soap is going to get you the most for your money. Or maybe you neglect to do this (simply opting for the container that looks the most appealing rather than optimizing for the amount of liquid per dolla…

I've started noticing some sneaky math in my local supermarket. When comparing two items, both list the unit price, but they list the price in different units. Example: A 1.4-lb package lists the price per oz, while the 0.8-lb package lists the price per lb. In every case, the intent seems too be an attempt to induce math errors and cause someone to accidentally purchase the package with the higher true unit price.

Some supermarket chains have an ethics policy against shelving like that with mixed units and if you catch it, and report it to a manager they will apologize and correct it.

I recall Kroger used to have a big focus on it, but a quick skim of current ethics policies on their website doesn't show an explicit mention. However they still have "honesty" as a guiding goal, so supposedly it's still worth reporting.

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#133

Post by MR4D »

volgo wrote: post #3

Some of the skills tested in the study seem more like arithmetics rather than financial skills: - "About a quarter could not work out how much change they should receive from a shop..." - "About one in three adults struggled to work out the price they had to pay.. per litre or per kilo" - "About half could not read a simple financial line graph" - "Most struggled to calculate discounts involving more complex calculat…

I’m not sure whether your comment was serious or not.

If you can’t figure out change in your head, nothing will help you be able to budget.

After all, budgeting can be looked at as a more complicated version of calculating change (albeit from a paycheck). And of course, without a good budget, your credit won’t be good, etc.

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#134

Post by walshemj »

smcl wrote: post #131
walshemj wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No actually real science jobs are paid appallingly I know what say the STEM grades in the civil service are paid. And even developers are paid badly when compared to our peers in the states and with other professions in the UK. Compare what google pays in London to what it pays in say Kansas I could buy a house there (Kansas) out if my cash savings You do know that the train driver on my commute to London is paid £60…

That's not a UK thing though - all STEM salaries in the EU are lower than their counterparts in the USA. I don't think this points to an anti-STEM culture specific to the UK. But that is kind of beside the point - you said they're socially looked down upon. Maybe I derailed it by anticipating you were meaning salaries ... but it sounds like you believe there's some overall anti-STEM sentiment and I honestly cannot th…

As a non brit you probably don't pick up on the unwritten social subtexts.

Well that's why one of the top 5 civil engineers set up an office in London - when most of there work is in the middle east.

Its not like in Europe where "Engineer" has a high social standing.

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#135

Post by scarface74 »

watwut wrote: post #129
prepend wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the breakdown of degrees? What source leads you to think most have practical degrees? I found this link, https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cta.asp , that says “Of the 1.9 million bachelor's degrees conferred in 2015–16, over half were concentrated in six fields of study: business (372,000 degrees), health professions and related programs (229,000 degrees), social sciences and history (161,000 degrees…

Definitely practical in order: business, health and related, engineering, biology, psychology. Some of science, whether history or social or biomedical wont be practical. How did you came to "most are not practical" from that breakdown? The worst off are those who did not finished school, but still paid some of it. These are not in your stats, they have no degree. Besides, those who finished college do better then th…

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2017/01/2...

But not all business majors are created equal in the job market. Research shows that students who major in general business and marketing are more likely to be unemployed or underemployed, meaning they hold jobs that don't require a college degree. They also earn less than those in more math-focused business majors, such as finance and accounting.

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#136

Post by smcl »

walshemj wrote: post #134
smcl wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a UK thing though - all STEM salaries in the EU are lower than their counterparts in the USA. I don't think this points to an anti-STEM culture specific to the UK. But that is kind of beside the point - you said they're socially looked down upon. Maybe I derailed it by anticipating you were meaning salaries ... but it sounds like you believe there's some overall anti-STEM sentiment and I honestly cannot th…

As a non brit you probably don't pick up on the unwritten social subtexts. Well that's why one of the top 5 civil engineers set up an office in London - when most of there work is in the middle east. Its not like in Europe where "Engineer" has a high social standing.

I'm Scottish. Honestly the idea that engineers in the UK are some lower social caste is a complete fantasy.

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#137

Post by John_KZ »

erikb wrote: post #92
John_KZ wrote: post #9

They don't control for age, so their study is worthless. Many of the countries mentioned as "the worst" have ageing populations and lots of emigrants.

I hope you really mean "emigrants", so smart people leaving their home countries, leaving the aging population that was not capable of going abroad. And I think people downvote because they assume you mean "immigrants" being stupid and thereby decreasing the average IQ in countries with lots of immigrants. The second statement I would also downvote, but until I'm convinced of the opposite I assume you mean the first.

Ah, that makes sense. I did mean emigrants. Emmigration and immigration have no correlation with IQ regardless. The lever of education sometimes does dictate who migrates (due to legal requirements or financial motivation for example), but the paper requires only basic arithmetic so it wouldn't have much of an effect anyway.

At this point I'm used to getting downvoted for no obvious reason so I don't even bother to ask why.

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#138

Post by erikb »

John_KZ wrote: post #137
erikb wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you really mean "emigrants", so smart people leaving their home countries, leaving the aging population that was not capable of going abroad. And I think people downvote because they assume you mean "immigrants" being stupid and thereby decreasing the average IQ in countries with lots of immigrants. The second statement I would also downvote, but until I'm convinced of the opposite I assume you mean the first.

Ah, that makes sense. I did mean emigrants. Emmigration and immigration have no correlation with IQ regardless. The lever of education sometimes does dictate who migrates (due to legal requirements or financial motivation for example), but the paper requires only basic arithmetic so it wouldn't have much of an effect anyway. At this point I'm used to getting downvoted for no obvious reason so I don't even bother to a…

My experience is also that the randomness increased over the recent years. That also means sometimes I get 40+ points for something that wasn't even worth one upvote in my opinion.

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#139

Post by watwut »

scarface74 wrote: post #135
watwut wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely practical in order: business, health and related, engineering, biology, psychology. Some of science, whether history or social or biomedical wont be practical. How did you came to "most are not practical" from that breakdown? The worst off are those who did not finished school, but still paid some of it. These are not in your stats, they have no degree. Besides, those who finished college do better then th…

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2017/01/2... But not all business majors are created equal in the job market. Research shows that students who major in general business and marketing are more likely to be unemployed or underemployed, meaning they hold jobs that don't require a college degree. They also earn less than those in more math-focused business majors, such as finance and accounting.

I said that students go for "practical or practically sounding degrees". He said that they should "Get a degree in something that can make money instead of a BS in Ancient Chinese Art History." Moreover, it is not clear where in the parent breakdown finance and accounting would be. They seem to fit the most under business as "related support service" I guess.

Students choose general business and marketing because they hope it will get them job and because they think they can finish it. It is not nearly "Ancient Chinese Art History" (which is not even major, more like a course). I am not saying that students are flawless oraculum in their choices.

However, they are not massively choosing weird arcane majors. The "students need to be told that business majors are less practical then they sounds like" is much different statement then "they need to be told not to go for bachelor in Ancient Chinese Art History".

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#140

Post by prepend »

watwut wrote: post #129
prepend wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the breakdown of degrees? What source leads you to think most have practical degrees? I found this link, https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cta.asp , that says “Of the 1.9 million bachelor's degrees conferred in 2015–16, over half were concentrated in six fields of study: business (372,000 degrees), health professions and related programs (229,000 degrees), social sciences and history (161,000 degrees…

Definitely practical in order: business, health and related, engineering, biology, psychology. Some of science, whether history or social or biomedical wont be practical. How did you came to "most are not practical" from that breakdown? The worst off are those who did not finished school, but still paid some of it. These are not in your stats, they have no degree. Besides, those who finished college do better then th…

I should have explained my math.

The called out categories sum to 1.1M. This is 57% of the total 1.9. So I guessed that removing some of the business and some of the social science take it under 50%.

But would definitely need to see all the degree types to know definitively.

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