Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game • Hacker News Board

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#131

Post by natch » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 2:18 AM UTC

Unfortunately they may have more tricks up their sleeve. That is, once they get payment for one patent, effectively getting an implied acknowledgment of the merits of the (meritless imho) patent, they might then reveal their other related patents, and offer to license those for even more money.

I wonder how many of these can be invalidated with trivial filings? These patents all have PayByClick Corporation as the assignee:

7,676,432: Methods and apparatus for transacting electronic commerce using account hierarchy and locking of accounts

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=H...

7,376,621: Method and apparatus for conducting electronic commerce transactions using electronic tokens

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=H...

7,328,189: Method and apparatus for conducting electronic commerce transactions using electronic tokens

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=H...

7,249,099: Method and apparatus for conducting electronic commerce transactions using electronic tokens

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=H...

7,249,060: Systems and methods for distributing on-line content

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=H...

7,177,838: Method and apparatus for conducting electronic commerce transactions using electronic tokens

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=H...

6,876,979: Electronic commerce bridge system

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=H...

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#132

Post by PhasmaFelis » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 2:21 AM UTC

jasonlaramburu wrote: post #107

fragsworth wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey. Developer of Clicker Heroes here. More examples of prior art are very helpful, so that would help us out a lot. Do you have any examples of any of these MUDs that had virtual currency?

Have you ever considered taking action against the lawyers representing the trolls? Most likely they are working on a contingency basis and will keep 1/3 of whatever the trolls can extract from you. It's likely that their friends, family and the people in their community have no idea they engage in these activities. I have heard of defendants using PR campaigns effectively in these cases. Oftentimes a potential $10k…

If you already don't have much money for legal fees, making things personal with an unscrupulous lawyer who doesn't mind filing petty lawsuits seems like a dangerous idea.

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#133

Post by MereInterest » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 2:33 AM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #118

fragsworth wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey. Developer of Clicker Heroes here. More examples of prior art are very helpful, so that would help us out a lot. Do you have any examples of any of these MUDs that had virtual currency?

One I just remembered from a decade or 2 ago: Realm of the Mad God. Its a browser based 16 bit mmo, and used the free to play, micro transactions model way before it was popular.

That one was released in June 2011, according to Wikipedia, so not useful as prior at to a patent filed in the 2000s.

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#134

Post by mmihaly » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 2:44 AM UTC

fragsworth wrote: post #120

mmihaly wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. I'm the friend he mentioned. Achaea.com was the first game in the world to use virtual currency/goods as its business model, back in 1997. Still live today. My company's at ironrealms.com. I mailed you offering help.

Wow. I actually remember playing your game when I was 17. I can't remember details about the virtual currency though. The '838 patent was filed in 2000 (which is the effective date, 2007 is just the processing date). Did Achaea have virtual currency before then? If so, that would help us a lot.

Yep, we started doing it in 1997 and have plenty of documentation to that effect.

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#135

Post by mmihaly » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 2:45 AM UTC

Im_Mr_Manager wrote: post #122

mmihaly wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. I'm the friend he mentioned. Achaea.com was the first game in the world to use virtual currency/goods as its business model, back in 1997. Still live today. My company's at ironrealms.com. I mailed you offering help.

Just wanted to note it was filed Apr. 21, 2000. 2007 is when the patent was given.

Nod, thanks. Makes no difference to our prior art, happily, as we were three years before that.

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#136

Post by mattnewport » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 2:45 AM UTC

ziikutv wrote: post #74

jlarocco wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The morality of both of them is subjective.

Would be more useful if you can comment on how/when patent trolling would be ethical

There are certainly people who defend the concept of intellectual property in general and patents in particular as ethical. I don't agree but it's arguably even a mainstream position. I imagine at least some of them would argue that patent trolling is at least a necessary evil to achieve the greater good of intellectual property laws. I can think of a number of at least somewhat defensible arguments why patent trolls are on net a good thing if you accept the basic flawed premise that intellectual property is ethical.

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#137

Post by mmihaly » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 2:55 AM UTC

ActsJuvenile wrote: post #123

mmihaly wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. I'm the friend he mentioned. Achaea.com was the first game in the world to use virtual currency/goods as its business model, back in 1997. Still live today. My company's at ironrealms.com. I mailed you offering help.

For the rest of the HN community, how do you fight patent trolls like these? How much does it cost ballpark to defend a product?

I don't really know the ins and outs of how. I've never been sued by patent trolls. I've been threatened, just responded with some of the evidence I have and a, "Are you sure you really want to do this?" and I never hear from them again.

When I've helped defend other companies (two of which are among the largest/most prominent in the games industry), I've just provided expert witness testimony as to the existence of prior art. I've never had to testify about it in court, so I'm fairly sure that each time the trolls dropped it before going to court.

As to how much it costs - no idea. They had pricey lawyers though, so there's certainly some cost involved. I suppose it depends on how big the balls on the troll are, or perhaps how easily they think the defendant will be intimidated into just settling.

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#138

Post by WalterBright » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 2:59 AM UTC

Back in the 1970s, I played Monopoly on the PDP-10. The Monopoly money was "virtual".

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#139

Post by danschumann » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 2:59 AM UTC

According to their flow, they collect user information after displaying a policy. My point is, if you re-arrange their flow chart, do you "invent around" the problem? (thereby negating their claim that you violate their patent(since their patent still relies on a specific process)?

Re: Patent trolls are shaking us down for selling “rubies” in our game

#140

Post by smoyer » Sat, Mar 03, 2018, 3:02 AM UTC

fragsworth wrote: post #120

mmihaly wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. I'm the friend he mentioned. Achaea.com was the first game in the world to use virtual currency/goods as its business model, back in 1997. Still live today. My company's at ironrealms.com. I mailed you offering help.

Wow. I actually remember playing your game when I was 17. I can't remember details about the virtual currency though. The '838 patent was filed in 2000 (which is the effective date, 2007 is just the processing date). Did Achaea have virtual currency before then? If so, that would help us a lot.

Their patent is for digital tokens ... Clearly rubies are your "unit of currency". Is there any chance it was supposed to be Rubles but was misspelled?