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An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

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Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#131

Post by StavrosK »

mox1 wrote: post #122
StavrosK wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just a low-investment screen Low-investment on the part of the employer. They still expect me to spend 90 minutes on proving I have seen a REPL before, which is time I, frankly, don't have. I'm happy to answer/talk about things that relate to my job, but working on puzzles that just happen to be solved more easily by programming has exactly nothing to do with it. > the candidate is asking for a completely custom tr…

Why are you looking for jobs if you are too busy to spend 90 minutes of effort on applying for that job? Maybe the whole point of the test is not how well you do, but how you react to being asked to do something you feel is beneath you...

> Why are you looking for jobs if you are too busy to spend 90 minutes of effort on applying for that job?

I didn't say I'm too busy to apply, I said I'm too busy to spend 90 minutes on useless tests.

> but how you react to being asked to do something you feel is beneath you...

You know what a great test for that would be? Ask the applicant to wash your car.

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#132

Post by chadash »

gedy wrote: post #100
chadash wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no question that some questions are inappropriate for senior hires. For example, if someone comes in with a lot of open source work, I think it's probably wise for the hiring manager to devote some more time and personalize the process a bit since that person has already has signals that they are probably good (or at least more likely to be good than most candidates). But most developers (and I'd venture most…

Sure, valid points, and agree there's a place for this type of screening. I'm mostly referring to when you're experienced, and approached by a company via an on-site recruiter or employee referral. You are busy and not actively looking, but then trying to then feed you through hackerrank quizzes or whiteboards is just so off-putting.

Agreed. I've seen this a lot myself. Companies want you to jump through hoops for them, but the most qualified people for the job probably don't have the time, patience or desire to do so.

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#133

Post by [deleted] »

dumbfounder wrote: post #40

In their defense, they probably have a very difficult time weeding out candidates that don't know anything about programming. It seems like this is the new alternative to a 30 minute phone screen, and I bet a lot of candidates actually like it. But it's good they have your feedback, and if they aren't too crusty, they will use your demonstration of knowledge in stead of your HackerRank score as proof you know your st…

[deleted]

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#134

Post by StavrosK »

nilkn wrote: post #121
StavrosK wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just a low-investment screen Low-investment on the part of the employer. They still expect me to spend 90 minutes on proving I have seen a REPL before, which is time I, frankly, don't have. I'm happy to answer/talk about things that relate to my job, but working on puzzles that just happen to be solved more easily by programming has exactly nothing to do with it. > the candidate is asking for a completely custom tr…

I can only speak for where I currently work. Our phone screens take 45 minutes on average rather than 90. If you don't have 45 minutes for a coding phone screen, then you also don't have 45 minutes for anything else you just mentioned, so I actually find your response fairly disingenuous. In fact, you don't have time to interview with any company in any capacity at all. We actually take great care in examining resume…

> Our phone screens take 45 minutes on average rather than 90

Even phone screens are better than "Here's a HackerRank link because I don't want to spend time talking to you, enjoy the next hour-and-a-half solving riddles".

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#136

Post by adgasf »

iabacu wrote: post #106
chii wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a homogenous culture of a large corporation, where each dev is a cog in the system, yes, i would agree that this person will not fit. If i had a start-up, i would definitely give this person a good old try, because i can tell that he/she is capable enough to churn out rather advanced projects with complexity higher than just CRUD. Programmers of this type is what i'd call 10x, and one should never dismiss a 10x!

I expect a 10x to be effective, and to know when to pick a fight or not. In this case, it definitively shows a bent for the innovative and smarts, but shows lack of judgement / wisdom. For a 10x, merely completing the test is a lot faster and more effective than trying to go change the process from the outside.

Maybe he cares about the industry as a whole? By putting his reasons up publicly, he has triggered a debate about the issue. This seems like a very high cost-benefit ratio to me!

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#137

Post by hnrodey »

bitL wrote: post #123
iwangulenko wrote: post #107

Programmer and owner of a technical recruitment agency here. I forked and rewrote the thing to make it more appealing to recruiters: https://gist.github.com/iwangu/b0d8b8e140afdd4e30bb7e401babc... I mainly removed things that sound patronising to me. I think many HR people will just ignore you if you e-mail what OP posted. Once, I wrote a blogpost why programmers don't get jobs due to random factors ("Why software en…

I think your approach would work if there was a shortage of jobs; there is exactly opposite situation right now and HR should adapt or they would end up with a very narrow dissection of what is available. You are often asking accomplished individuals to waste their time on badly compensated job proposals, just because it makes your life easier. No wonder so many programmers think recruiters in this industry are a jok…

There seem to be an abundance of "openings" but a shortage of offers. At least that's if you believe the whining on boards like here, Reddit, etc.

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#138

Post by nilkn »

StavrosK wrote: post #134
nilkn wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only speak for where I currently work. Our phone screens take 45 minutes on average rather than 90. If you don't have 45 minutes for a coding phone screen, then you also don't have 45 minutes for anything else you just mentioned, so I actually find your response fairly disingenuous. In fact, you don't have time to interview with any company in any capacity at all. We actually take great care in examining resume…

> Our phone screens take 45 minutes on average rather than 90 Even phone screens are better than "Here's a HackerRank link because I don't want to spend time talking to you, enjoy the next hour-and-a-half solving riddles".

I don't think I fully appreciated that HackerRank does not involve the direct participation from anyone at the hiring company. I wouldn't be on board with that, and that certainly makes more more sympathetic to the OP.

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#139

Post by eeZah7Ux »

tty7 wrote: post #64
chii wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a homogenous culture of a large corporation, where each dev is a cog in the system, yes, i would agree that this person will not fit. If i had a start-up, i would definitely give this person a good old try, because i can tell that he/she is capable enough to churn out rather advanced projects with complexity higher than just CRUD. Programmers of this type is what i'd call 10x, and one should never dismiss a 10x!

I would be even more hesitant to hire for a startup! can this person grow with the startup? what happens when we have 10, 20, 30+ engineers - how will they work with the team - will they second guess everything? will everything be an argument? I'm not doubting this persons ability - I'm only responding my opinion of this person based solely on this email.

A meaningful and informed debate is more useful to the company than writing a million lines of code.

You hire people to solve problems, not churn out code. Code is only a tool to solve a problem.

Re: An employer asked me to do a HackerRank test. Here's my alternative proposal.

#140

Post by s3nnyy »

bitL wrote: post #123
iwangulenko wrote: post #107

Programmer and owner of a technical recruitment agency here. I forked and rewrote the thing to make it more appealing to recruiters: https://gist.github.com/iwangu/b0d8b8e140afdd4e30bb7e401babc... I mainly removed things that sound patronising to me. I think many HR people will just ignore you if you e-mail what OP posted. Once, I wrote a blogpost why programmers don't get jobs due to random factors ("Why software en…

I think your approach would work if there was a shortage of jobs; there is exactly opposite situation right now and HR should adapt or they would end up with a very narrow dissection of what is available. You are often asking accomplished individuals to waste their time on badly compensated job proposals, just because it makes your life easier. No wonder so many programmers think recruiters in this industry are a jok…

I agree totally with what you said, but you're confusing macro- and micro-economics here. On a macro-level it is true, HR people should be treating programmers like gods at all times, but on a micro-level, the HR person sitting in the cubicle doesn't care about one programmer more or less.

There might be ten other CVs of "okay'ish" engineers in HR's inbox and your interview will end by never hearing back the firm. Or if, despite being cocky, you get an offer there might be a note somewhere next to your CV on the CEO's desk saying "easy-to-work-with level: Only 50% score" which leads to 10k less for you in salary. As an applicant, you want to "manipulate" the employer to give you the best possible offer and why shouldn't you be friendly and a bit submissive to achieve your goal?

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