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Arctic temperatures soar 25 degrees above normal in the dead of winter

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Re: Arctic temperatures soar 25 degrees above normal in the dead of winter

#131
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point believing or not believing in climate change is analogous to religion. I have trouble believing any facts or data would swing a significant portion of either side of the debate. Denying climate change is easy. We're not going to see places like New York City move swiftly underwater and the problem is so abstract it's easy to call BS. Short of Trump changing his mind and using his super power of convinci…

Climate change denialism has more in common with Flat Earth Theory than religion of any stripe. (Which makes so many Americans buying into it all the more frighting.)

Actually claiming there are a lot of climate change denialist out there is probably more religious.

Most skeptics if not all of them agree there is climate change, most of them even agree some of it is man-made.

The discussion is how much and you won't find any consensus on that no matter how much you try to ask for it.

Re: Arctic temperatures soar 25 degrees above normal in the dead of winter

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Richard Stallman inconveniences himself to the point of absurdity I'm not sure that's an apt comparison. rms simply has a workflow that doesn't require the use of proprietary software. It's not that inconvenient for him. In on-topic comparison, it would be having a lifestyle where you'd simply have no use for a car: you live close to work, enjoy riding a bicycle, etc. Of course, finding that workflow or lifestyle m…

So do vegans have a workflow that makes their diet convenient. The thing is, one has to start somewhere, and no one starts anywhere because they see the change as inconvenient.

> So do vegans have a workflow that makes their diet convenient.

I suppose so. More home cooking, sourcing ingredients, finding small markets, knowing the right restaurants, etc.

> The thing is, one has to start somewhere, and no one starts anywhere because they see the change as inconvenient.

That's probably and unfortunately very true, in software as well as food and CO2 reduction.

Re: Arctic temperatures soar 25 degrees above normal in the dead of winter

#133
post #118

Anecdotal: I live in Whitehorse, Yukon. For reference I drive due South to Alaska. The weather here is nothing, and I mean nothing like it used to be. It would reliably be -40 for all of Jan and Feb in the past. The river would freeze to the point of holding the massive festival ON the river with cars, tents, thousands of people ,etc. The river has not frozen for a decade, it regularly goes above freezing in Jan and…

We still have the Yukon Sourdough Rendezvous festival, it's just on land now. It's actually happening this weekend! It's always the last full weekend in February, in case our city piques your interest ;) http://www.northofordinary.com/winter_rendezvous Anecdotally, I've also heard from a couple of farmers that the wind up here is different than it was in the '70s.

haha, I'm away right now, but I live in Whitehorse, I've been to Rendezvous many, many times :)

My first year it didn't get above -40... daytime high temps :)

Re: Arctic temperatures soar 25 degrees above normal in the dead of winter

#134
post #99
post #4

Using events like this to illustrate that global warming is happening is about as scientifically significant as when Trump used the recent US cold snap to imply that global warming isn't happening. I'm not saying climate change doesn't exist--it certainly does--but outlying events like this aren't by themselves particularly unusual. "Normal", after all, is at the top of a bell curve, and deviations from normal should…

This is a false equivalence. The reasons they’re being linked are important too. When Trump and others point to cold snaps as evidence against climate change, they’re just drawing a straight line from one to the other with no rationale or explanation in between. When extreme events like this are linked to climate change, they’re presented as illustrative of a well studied phenomenon that definitely causes this sort o…

I don't think the main thrust of your argument is wrong, however, your sickness example is also a false equivalence.

There's nothing logically or philosophically or scientifically preventing both explanations for why we each got sick from being simultaneously true. You're attempting to draw a dividing line between "religious thinking" and "rational, scientific thinking". No such division existed throughout history. Even today many "scientists" think along religious terms while many religions are evidence-obsessed. Counter-examples abound.

Re: Arctic temperatures soar 25 degrees above normal in the dead of winter

#135
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In similar ways, majority of people that believe in climate change do nothing (or barely anything) to fight it. No one is reducing their heating/cooling, no one is changing their diet, no one is measuring their heating patterns and trying to optimize it (by no one I mean barely anyone). People still want their 24/7 AC, their steaks, their huge cars, their big heat inefficient houses, their plane flights etc. No one d…

"Eat your vegetables" is never the answer. In climate change, because of the coordination problems, "Eat your vegetables" is so emphatically not the answer that it shouldn't even be discussed as anything except a desperate, ineffective stopgap. People will keep eating candy. They will never eat their vegetables, unless they taste like candy. It's pointless to imagine worlds in which they eat their vegetables and ever…

"Eat your vegetables" at least works for some people, myself for one. It's not like climate change where being good helps only if everyone is. Anyone who internalizes the reasons vegetables > candy will want to eat vegetables and be personally better off.

Re: Arctic temperatures soar 25 degrees above normal in the dead of winter

#136
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a false equivalence. The reasons they’re being linked are important too. When Trump and others point to cold snaps as evidence against climate change, they’re just drawing a straight line from one to the other with no rationale or explanation in between. When extreme events like this are linked to climate change, they’re presented as illustrative of a well studied phenomenon that definitely causes this sort o…

I don't think the main thrust of your argument is wrong, however, your sickness example is also a false equivalence. There's nothing logically or philosophically or scientifically preventing both explanations for why we each got sick from being simultaneously true. You're attempting to draw a dividing line between "religious thinking" and "rational, scientific thinking". No such division existed throughout history. E…

It’s not about one explanation being logically impossible. It’s about one explanation being factually untrue.

Re: Arctic temperatures soar 25 degrees above normal in the dead of winter

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...and flat earth theory also has a lot in common with religion. I wouldn't say so. At least not in the epistemic/anti-epistemic way that parallels climate-change denialism. Most religions make a lot of unfalsifiable claims. Since opponents cannot conclusively falsify those claims, it gives religious adherents an epistemic place to hide and claim personal religious experiences, etc. Most religions have not, in the…

>>Most religions have not, in the main, been conclusively refuted That's because most religions have as their central tenet a completely unfalsifiable claim: that there is a god.

One should remember that many unfalsifiable things are true.

Zero falsified things are true (plus some false negative rate)

Personally, I believe in God because it’s tautological. Saying there is a god is like saying half of children are above average. As soon as you reference a line in the universe, there is inevitably an ultimate point on it.

Edit: I will add that I don’t think God is truly omnipotent. She is bound by the laws of physics, same as us, and will die with the universe. Perhaps sooner. But my article of faith is that she will long outlast me. If I’m wrong, and God dies on my watch, that’s a bridge I needn’t worry about til I get there.

Re: Arctic temperatures soar 25 degrees above normal in the dead of winter

#138
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We still have the Yukon Sourdough Rendezvous festival, it's just on land now. It's actually happening this weekend! It's always the last full weekend in February, in case our city piques your interest ;) http://www.northofordinary.com/winter_rendezvous Anecdotally, I've also heard from a couple of farmers that the wind up here is different than it was in the '70s.

haha, I'm away right now, but I live in Whitehorse, I've been to Rendezvous many, many times :) My first year it didn't get above -40... daytime high temps :)

Two Yukoners in the thread! I'm way further south in Regina, but it's good to see Canadians who aren't from Vancouver or Toronto!

And as a crazy question, given that there's only a population of 25k in Whitehorse... what's the tech scene like? :)

Re: Arctic temperatures soar 25 degrees above normal in the dead of winter

#139
post #4

Using events like this to illustrate that global warming is happening is about as scientifically significant as when Trump used the recent US cold snap to imply that global warming isn't happening. I'm not saying climate change doesn't exist--it certainly does--but outlying events like this aren't by themselves particularly unusual. "Normal", after all, is at the top of a bell curve, and deviations from normal should…

There is a qualitative difference which makes it beyond improbable that the changes we observe happen by chance.

Let's say your assumption is that the things we observe happen by chance. Now, we have, say 100 years of temperature records. If only the last year just happens to be the warmest year of all observations, there would be an 1:100 probability that this was by chance.

Now, Wikipedia says: "A 2013 article published in Geophysical Research Letters has shown that temperatures in the region haven't been as high as they currently are since at least 44,000 years ago and perhaps as long as 120,000 years ago. The authors conclude that "anthropogenic increases in greenhouse gases have led to unprecedented regional warmth."[12][13]"

So it is way more than one warm year in 100 years.

But to comprehend the unlikelihood that this happens by chance, consider another record. Look at this graph:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/Gl...

It shows that the instrumental temperature record sind 1880 to today. You see that since 1980, every year was warmer than all the years before.

What is the probability of that for the hypothesis this happened by chance? From 1880 to 2017 are 137 years. The last 37 years have higher temperatures than all the years before. Assuming that no systematic change is happening, the probability is the same as putting the numbers from 1 to 137 into a box, drawing blindly 37 from them, and discovering that you have drawn the numbers 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, and so on, until 137. What is the probability of this?

It is given by the binominal coefficient:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combination

with n = 137, k=37, 1 : n! / (k! (n - k)!).

Using Python:

    >>> def fak(n):
    ...     if n >>def binom(n,k): 
    ... return fak(n) / (fak(k) * fak(n-k))
    
    >>> n=137
    >>> k=37
    >>> binom(n,k)
    3902541575254646835963436276286280L
So, the probability it happens by chance is

1 / 3902541575254646835963436276286280

Do you still think it happens by chance?

Re: Arctic temperatures soar 25 degrees above normal in the dead of winter

#140
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will be a net loss to global agriculture for a couple reasons: 1. Climate change implies increased variability in weather--hotter summers, wetter winters. Agriculture does best in a relatively stable environment. Just look at California--extremely wet winters followed by extremely hot wildfires. It's hard for a species to thrive in a very wide variety of conditions. Not impossible, of course, with humanity bein…

California is one of the most agriculturally diverse and productive regions in the world. I'm not sure what your point is, but implying agriculture struggles in California is just plain wrong.

I apologize, that part was poorly written. What I meant is that the kind of weather variation California's been experiencing will become the new normal, and the worse said variation is, the worse yields will become in general.
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