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China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

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Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#131

Post by woodandsteel »

bilbo0s wrote: post #24
justicezyx wrote: post #10

A side note: The terrorist attacks (what the CCP states) in Xinjiang was rampant. Every years hundreds of innocent people were killed. And due to media control, those reports seldom see publicity outside of small forums in the first a few months following the events. ps1: Whether or not those attacks are done by terrorists, or oppressed minorities, I have no comments. ps2: This not a defend. Merely suggest one of the…

"...Whether or not those attacks are done by terrorists, or oppressed minorities, I have no comments...." ??? If "...oppressed minorities..." commit acts wherein "...hundreds of innocent people were killed..." aren't they "terrorists"? Or am I thinking about this whole thing wrong?

A more neutral definition of terrorism is that it is organized violence for a political end that is directed largely at the population in order to make them feel fear. This is in contrast to usual military action, which is directed mainly at the military on the other side.

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#132

Post by brokenmachine »

namelost wrote: post #69
chaostheory wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the UK, this is already well known. They have about a camera per 14 people give or take. Post 9-11, in the US it's also spread. Typically it's in really crime-ridden areas where law and order is barely sustainable (yes these exist). The only one I can't comment much on is Russia. Given that they essentially have a dictatorship, I wouldn't be surprised if they had a big program as well. imo the state of the art s…

On the plus side, there is no law against face coverings in the UK. You can legally walk along the street wearing a guy falkes mask, motorcycle helmet or niqab. Nor is there any requirement to carry ID.

Thank god for that. I can wear my spiderman costume. How lovely to live in such a free country!! /s

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#133

Post by woodandsteel »

Barrin92 wrote: post #81
gugudollz wrote: post #68

There has never been internet shutdown in Kenya. TV stations were switched off but never internet. If China establishes autocratic regimes in the global South it will seize those governments and leverage that to gain power over the West. It's myopic to think their goal is anything less than absolute domination of the world.

It's probably safe to assume that China wants to increase its influence, but accusing any country of plans of 'absolute domination' based on domestic surveillance probably says more about the psyche of the accuser than anyone else

Where would you say China is trying to go in the long-term, internationally? I get the impression it wants to be the global hegemon, but perhaps I am wrong.

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#134

Post by seanmcdirmid »

adventured wrote: post #95
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But these are generally happening between cities, and near-city suburbs, not from rural areas or exurbs. Basically, people are trading some form of urbanization for another, leading to huge imbalances in our infrastructure while our urbanization rate stays basically the same (maybe inching up 1% every ten years as it has done for the last 30).

That's refuted by the data I included showing the increase in urbanization since 1980. From 73% to roughly 82% in 2018. As I noted, that's equivalent to three New Yorks. The urbanization shift is equivalent to 27 million people (versus if it had stayed at 73.x%). Or 30 San Franciscos.

The last 30 years, 1990, 2000, 2010, ... 2020. There was a weird abnormally big leap between 1980 and 1990, but then it was super low 1970 and 1980 (only .1%!). So while growth was from 73.7% to 80.7% between 1980 and 2010 (a definite cherry pick), it was only from 78% to 80.7% from 1990 to 2010! Now say we are at 82% (predicted) now in 2018, I don't see how we are going anywhere near the 1980-1990 rate for the 2020 census.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_in_the_United_Sta...

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#135

Post by WillPostForFood »

kashprime wrote: post #113
smallnamespace wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least a few years ago, de Toqueville's 'On the Old Regime and the Revolution' was on the Communist Party's reading list [1]. The Chinese Civil War of '49 and then the Cultural Revolution (where most of the then-current Party leadership suffered) is still within living memory of the ruling class. Of course they understand that there is an implicit contract between themselves and the rest of society, even if it the…

> The question is not whether China will eventually devolve more political power to the populace——that is almost a given This idea was popular in 2013 when this article was written, but Xi's regime has indeed shown that greater prosperity can be had with increased repression. Turmoil in America only underlines this.

I think that cause effect is backwards, China is showing that given greater prosperity, people tolerate increased repression. We will see how it fares when China hits its next big recession/depression.

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#136

Post by yusuke10 »

kashprime wrote: post #113
smallnamespace wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least a few years ago, de Toqueville's 'On the Old Regime and the Revolution' was on the Communist Party's reading list [1]. The Chinese Civil War of '49 and then the Cultural Revolution (where most of the then-current Party leadership suffered) is still within living memory of the ruling class. Of course they understand that there is an implicit contract between themselves and the rest of society, even if it the…

> The question is not whether China will eventually devolve more political power to the populace——that is almost a given This idea was popular in 2013 when this article was written, but Xi's regime has indeed shown that greater prosperity can be had with increased repression. Turmoil in America only underlines this.

> greater prosperity can be had with increased repression.

Fake prosperity between 2012 and now. 300%+ debt ratio. High government debt. High (state) corporate debt. creeping up Household debt. Several provinces disclosed 20-30% fake revenue. Xi's government now stresses stability over GDP growth (sign of weakness). Several high-level Chinese economists warn of an economic crash in China.

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#137

Post by jonathanyc »

_cs2017_ wrote: post #108
pentae wrote: post #99

So can anyone tell me why we should support what China is doing? Why should any entrepreneur or tech worker go there and support this government? How come China seems to get a free pass on human rights issues like this by western society?

Because keeping a large diverse country stable and safe is very difficult, and a failure causes enormous tragedy. The approach that works to keep the US stable does not always work well in other countries. To keep the billion people who live in China safe from civil war and rampant terrorism is already a great achievement -- even it comes at the expense of some nice things such as human rights. In fact, China manages…

I always am humbled to think about the many massive wars in China that no one in the West has ever heard of—for example, the Punti Hakka Clan Wars in the 19th century which killed a million people, which is around the same number that died in the US Civil War. Similarly, in one year, 1858, the amount of opium imported into China was the same as the entire production for the decade around 2010. And in the Great Leap Forward bad policy led to tens of millions of deaths.

I personally am unsure whether the CCP is really holding back the gates against a resurgence of death and suffering on this sort of scale (after all, in its earlier years it was responsible for the Great Leap Forward). But if we are to judge by the economic growth and stability imposed upon China since then, they seem to be doing a decent job. Unfortunately I imagine it will be many decades until we can know for sure.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_opium_in_China

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#138

Post by ssdd »

otoburb wrote: post #3

>> For the next 10 months, web access would be almost nonexistent in Xinjiang, a vast region larger than Texas with a population of more than 20 million. It was one of the most widespread, longest internet shutdowns ever. SpaceX's plans to launch their first set of satellites for their Starlink broadband constellation[1]. Uighers may be the first population to sign up for satellite subscriptions, although the Chinese…

Satellite based broadband surely is something hard to restrict, and would be nice option for Uighers. But before we declare it as the solution to problem we need to think through any risks that it can pose. There aren't going to be many providers of satellite based broadband which means prices would be high due to lack of competition. There is also the issue of traffic snooping by US government, especially if US companies going to be sole player in this field.

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#139

Post by ghostcluster »

yusuke10 wrote: post #136
kashprime wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The question is not whether China will eventually devolve more political power to the populace——that is almost a given This idea was popular in 2013 when this article was written, but Xi's regime has indeed shown that greater prosperity can be had with increased repression. Turmoil in America only underlines this.

> greater prosperity can be had with increased repression. Fake prosperity between 2012 and now. 300%+ debt ratio. High government debt. High (state) corporate debt. creeping up Household debt. Several provinces disclosed 20-30% fake revenue. Xi's government now stresses stability over GDP growth (sign of weakness). Several high-level Chinese economists warn of an economic crash in China.

don't forget clamping down on capital outflow from private citizens

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/07/chinas-crackdown-on-money-fl...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-s-insurance-regulator-to-...

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#140

Post by ssdd »

vondur wrote: post #4

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what the Chinese authorities want. What everyone else wants isn't their concern.

There's noting special about it. This is true for all social hierarchy, plans that are important to the people at the top are implemented.
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