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Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

theguardian.com

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Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#131

Post by noobermin »

lgessler wrote: post #123
nyolfen wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it’s not a strawman, he represented an earnest and well developed, if extreme, position on animal rights that many vegans hold

Let me do away with the word "strawman"--perhaps I have misused the word here. My point is that noobermin suggests that there are only two "bundles of rights" that we may give to organisms: those that we have traditionally given to humans and to non-human animals. Noobermin says that we must "draw a line" between organisms that we may exploit and organisms that we must regard as human-like. (That traditionally we hav…

So I actually admit in the later reply down below that I don't really have a line. In fact, what I prefer is closer to what you suggest here: a level of respect for life that isn't bunched into two classes but should be on a spectrum dependent on their level of sentience. The reason I said the actual word "line" wasn't too literal, I meant it more in a colloquial sense; I think a more helpful wording would be "you can't include all animals under your definition of 'sentience', some will fall short and essentially make life very unpleasant for you and those humans you love."

The commenter I was replying too shared links that suggest that nearly all mammals should have their life respected and their interests "cannot be considered to have less weight than humans' interests[0]", which is an extreme position most people won't take.

[0] http://www.animal-ethics.org/sentience-section/relevance-of-...

Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#132

Post by dang »

ImSkeptical wrote: post #51
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans presumably are seen as sentient yet [the majority of us?] are being exploited in one way or another: Capitalism has no inbuilt concept of respect. If you meant not exploited for food, that is obviously different. I'm not aware of any humans that do that anymore. Now tell me how you judge sentience?

Why can't we respect human dignity like those communists who murdered and starved tens of millions of people, ruined economies, and consigned countless people to oppression and deprivation?

Ideological boilerplate is not welcome here. Please don't post any more of it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Edit: this account has been using HN primarily for ideological battle. As the site guidelines say, we ban accounts that do that, so I'm banning this one. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.

Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#133

Post by dotancohen »

sethbannon wrote: post #91
noobermin wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to draw a line somewhere. Are plants not "resources to be exploited?" How about the bacteria in our gut? Ok, how about insects, say you don't even kill insects, what about if you accidentally step on a worm on a rainy day? Should we create "insect free zones" that keep bugs out (somehow) so that insects don't get needlessly killed on sidewalks or roads? What about rats? Rats and house mice carry harmf…

Yes, we do need to draw the line somewhere. I'm glad you agree. I'm also glad you agree that we shouldn't cause suffering to Orcas, Dolphins, primates, or elephants. Why do you think we should not cause suffering to those non-human animals but think that it's ok to cause suffering to other non-human animals? My line in the sand is sentience (the ability to suffer). What's yours?

> My line in the sand is sentience (the ability to suffer). What's yours?

This is the same argument as "What's a planet", my definition ensures that we still have nine!

I'll give you another one: "Which people keeps the Temple Mount", my solution says the Jews!

Lines need to be drawn somewhere, and people will be upset no matter where the line is drawn. Sometimes we need to accept that we got one line drawn to far to the left for our liking, another drawn too far to the right for our liking, but the choice is to either accept imperfect lines or spend our whole lives arguing or fighting.

I'll let you have eight planets, but that Temple Mount is mine!

Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#134

Post by mitchtbaum »

cetalingua wrote: post #20
mitchtbaum wrote: post #11

How would we type their speech patterns vs ours? Different frequency ranges? Speed? Cadence? ... Here is the only bit I can remember from cross-human language comparison, not cross-species: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_tempo (searched: different languages speaking rate) (Edit: information density and speech rate) So my first question is about types of "spoken languages"? --- from searching, "types of language…

The role of larynx in cetacean sound production is still debated, but we do know that they posses at least 2 sound generating mechanisms that could work independently and simultaneously. It appears that right side phonic lip is involved in echolocation and pulsed sounds, the right one is involved in whistling. Two (maybe even 3, if larynx is indeed invoved too) sound producing mechanisms make their communication even…

> the function of even a single call, apart, of course, from signature whistles and echolocation

Denise Herzing id'd seaweed, right?

Perhaps there are other ones easy to identify through existing sub-sea-level candid camera videos: hey, there's a [food they eat], let's go over there; help / danger, there's a [thing they fear]; I forgot my [phone / wallet / keys] in my other pair of pants, brb...

> we struggle to determine who produces the sound

What about based on signature whistles for addressing one another? It looks like there's a good amount of info on how they use it, so that could help, right?

> it is a cacophony

What about looking for only "vocal copy" instances between individuals to use as markers?

Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#135

Post by Ntrails »

sethbannon wrote: post #17

Listening to these remarkable recordings, I can't help but think that as time goes on, more and more of the artificial mental barriers we've built between us and non-human animals will fall. I hope with more research humanity stops seeing non-human animals as resources to be exploited but rather as sentient beings to be respected.

> I hope with more research humanity stops seeing non-human animals as resources to be exploited but rather as sentient beings to be respected.

We, as a species, don't even see other human beings in that light. That's quite a dream you've got.

Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#136

Post by coldtea »

ImSkeptical wrote: post #98
coldtea wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is a response about what communists did relevant to a critique of capitalism? Except if one can't think of any other alternative or starting point from which to criticize capitalism but communism (and even more so, how some specific regimes practiced it).

Communism is the typical alternative to capitalism.

There are tons of alternatives to capitalism.

From anarcho-syndicalism and social democracy, to more obscure religious, environmental and so on approaches.

Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#137

Post by cetalingua »

mitchtbaum wrote: post #134
cetalingua wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The role of larynx in cetacean sound production is still debated, but we do know that they posses at least 2 sound generating mechanisms that could work independently and simultaneously. It appears that right side phonic lip is involved in echolocation and pulsed sounds, the right one is involved in whistling. Two (maybe even 3, if larynx is indeed invoved too) sound producing mechanisms make their communication even…

> the function of even a single call, apart, of course, from signature whistles and echolocation Denise Herzing id'd seaweed, right? Perhaps there are other ones easy to identify through existing sub-sea-level candid camera videos: hey, there's a [food they eat], let's go over there; help / danger, there's a [thing they fear]; I forgot my [phone / wallet / keys] in my other pair of pants, brb... > we struggle to dete…

Denise Herzing used synthetic whistles trying to label things in our human way, pretty much the extension of Herman's line of thought. But we do not know if dolphins indeed label things in their natural communication system.

Signature whistles are tricky, and not everyone agrees that they are actually a thing. There was a recent study done in Israel where dolphins appeared to be using signature whistles of dolphins who died some time ago. It could mean that either signature whistles are not what we think they are, or that dolphins have routine conversations about their dead companions.

Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#138

Post by kingkawn »

lamename wrote: post #58
kingkawn wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grimly hilarious that anyone ever thought they couldn’t

Nociception /= pain

The true magical thinking here is that there is a difference where the similarity is so obvious and the origins are the same

Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#139

Post by mijamo »

maroonblazer wrote: post #129
smallgovt wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how your other replies address why sentience matters, and I think that's the core of GP's comment. Why is sentience an objective good or something to be valued? Imo, morals and values are always relative and never absolute. As a result, there's no objective answer to where this line in the sand should be drawn. You can say sentience is the measuring stick. I can say that life itself is the measuring stick…

If you were to be thrown into a pot of boiling water and kept there for 10 minutes, would you rather be living and sentient or living and non-sentient? I'm guessing you'd choose the latter as would everyone else which suggests there's an objective basis for sentience.

Why would you do that? I have no idea of the experience as a non sentient. Maybe it's the same. Maybe better. Maybe worst.

Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#140

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

virmundi wrote: post #117
tgarv wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You honestly think that most horse meat steaks are from animals that were put down due to a leg injury?

No, OP said that it would be a waste to not use the meat from such animals. To the child of that person's comment, there is a presumption that a non-poisonous method was used such as hammer or bolt-gun.

That won't happen.

If the horse has to be euthanized, unless it happens far from vet care (say on a distant trail ride), it's going to be given a lethal dose of sedative. If it does happen far from care, then it'll be most likely shot in the head and the carcass burned or left for predators if it's not possible to dig a pit for it.

Source: live on a horse farm and have had to deal with weak or dead horses.

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