Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave • Hacker News Board

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#131

Post by TaylorAlexander » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 11:25 PM UTC

ng12 wrote: post #5

chollida1 wrote: post #2

I thought this was interesting because if knowledge workers like journalists can do so, why not programmers, or what ever term you'd prefer to be called?

Why do we need a union in a seller's market? If I'm unhappy with my job I can quit and get a new one in a week. It's not about being a knowledge worker. Screenwriters are unionized because there are many more people who want to write than there are gigs, therefore there's a high potential for abuse.

Many have already replied here but I will respond in my own words.

Not everyone can do what you can do and those people in particular benefit from a union. Others have also listed why you may benefit but I wanted to make clear that you assuming everyone is like you is silly.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#132

Post by AdamJacobMuller » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 11:26 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #116

paxy wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are these "so many developers" you've referenced a dozen times? You've been spending too much time on internet forums listening to rants of the vocal minority. Truth is that most developers are happy and don't need a drastic change, and this can hardly be said about any other profession.

People disagree about open offices. Some people disagree about the option to work from home or hire remote. But it is hard to believe that ANY of us disagree about IP contracts or extended options execution windows. Are you a professional developer? Which of these issues do you think are non-issues?

> disagree about IP contracts

Probably a bit of debate here, there are for sure some absurd ones I've read about here. I understand why companies feel the need to protect themselves though, even if its wrong.

> extended options execution windows

This is just stupid and I'm not sure anyone thinks the current system is good, not employees, not employers and not even the IRS.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#133

Post by dizzystar » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 11:27 PM UTC

s73ver_ wrote: post #127

dizzystar wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ask the non-union folk about that. Getting into a movie industry union is very difficult and rather expensive to boot. You don't just get into these unions by showing up at the door. The correlation to software would be having a list of progressively difficult things you have to do, so that, ultimately, only 10% of people make it in. The rest pay their dues by working minimum wage jobs and unpaid internships.

That's them. One thing that you seem to be forgetting is that, if we made a union, WE get to decide how it works. The Screen Actors Guild has conditions for entry. Most others don't.

The parent was discussing SAG / AFTRA, which I felt compelled to correct him or her on it.

The fact is that all unions start with some exclusions. This would have to be a critical piece of any unionization as employers would have no incentive to agree to the terms laid out.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#134

Post by kelnos » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 11:27 PM UTC

untog wrote: post #4

chollida1 wrote: post #2

I thought this was interesting because if knowledge workers like journalists can do so, why not programmers, or what ever term you'd prefer to be called?

It is interesting that programmers (as a whole) seem resistant to it. It's often described as being unnecessary, but when you go one or two posts down HN you find people decrying long hours, open plan offices, weekend callouts, etc. etc. I suspect it's just that when the going is good, people don't really think they need a union. If the prophecies come true and AI starts writing code for us, you can bet people will s…

My feeling is that a lot of knowledge workers look down on unionizing as a "blue collar thing" (ignoring the fact that actors, writers, orchestral musicians, etc. are all often in unions as well).

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#135

Post by Apocryphon » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 11:28 PM UTC

paxy wrote: post #122

Apocryphon wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure there was an assembly line in '70s Detroit with this same conversation.

What's your argument here? Every assembly line worker in 70s Detroit was unionized.

The "here we are today, look how good we have it" narrative is complacent and dangerous. Eventually you will be disrupted.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#136

Post by losteverything » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 11:31 PM UTC

Imo union-ism is an attitide and coupled with experience is effective.

Just because you are salaried and "professional" does not mean you collectively do not have extreme clout.

Whatever the hot issues are - say hours worked in a 7 day period - and the desire is to place limits (say 4 twelve hour days amd 1 eight hour day) having a union attitude means your bargained (agreed upon) rules are enforceable. And you carry a right to not work outside your agreed upon scope.

The attitide comes in when you stop work after the last day. It's your right.

People in unions (i am one) are the beneficiaries of years of compromise and abuse But it's fragile.

All the union is is a sturdy frame which everyone stands on. Its sure footed. Otherwise workers - even professionals- have no true security, no true predictable work conditions.

Iz is very unfortunate that union has become such a negative word. If a handful of people got together and simply stopped the management "abuse" i guarantee (!!!!) you you would be surprised how much power even engineer types can have

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#137

Post by tptacek » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 11:31 PM UTC

mvid wrote: post #129

tptacek wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://i.imgur.com/lziE8QA.jpg It's open, but we got it because we loved the building, and we have two conference rooms with doors for calls. (My "desk" is a big couch with a monitor arm mounted to the wall.)

I wish I could invest in whichever back doctor is closest to you

You really think one form of sitting is better than another? I think I'd rather alternate between slouching for 40 minutes and then walking around for 10 then to sit at a desk. But, we'll see how my experiment pans out!

(I worked from a couch at WeWork for a year prior to this and it didn't seem to ruin me).

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#138

Post by tptacek » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 11:32 PM UTC

AdamJacobMuller wrote: post #132

tptacek wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People disagree about open offices. Some people disagree about the option to work from home or hire remote. But it is hard to believe that ANY of us disagree about IP contracts or extended options execution windows. Are you a professional developer? Which of these issues do you think are non-issues?

> disagree about IP contracts Probably a bit of debate here, there are for sure some absurd ones I've read about here. I understand why companies feel the need to protect themselves though, even if its wrong. > extended options execution windows This is just stupid and I'm not sure anyone thinks the current system is good, not employees, not employers and not even the IRS.

Would you like a link to a prominent venture capitalist saying that he prefers companies he invest in keep their exercise window short to improve retention? Because I can provide that link, but it'll be annoying to dig up, so you'll have to bet me $10 to my $100 to charity that I can't.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#139

Post by maxaf » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 11:34 PM UTC

dvt wrote: post #130

tptacek wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's a "seller's market", why do so many developers work under onerous IP contracts that grant their employers rights to what they build in their spare time? If it's a "seller's market", why do so many developers work in noisy bullpen environments where they have to blast music into their ears with headphones to focus their attention on what they're building? If it's a "seller's market", why do so many developers…

Wish I could upvote this 1000 times. After ~ 10 years working as a developer, I don't think I want to do it ever again. Don't get me wrong, I love writing code (and I'm pretty good at it, too), but doing it professionally is beyond broken. Working in product or in project management is literally 10% of the stress with the same pay. How does that make any sense?

It's far from the same pay, not even close. Going into PM, for any value of P, would require me to cut back dramatically on the lifestyle that software engineering work has afforded my family. Have a look at Glassdoor data for any company. Pay disparity between the two professions is obvious.

Re: Union Is Formed at Los Angeles Times and Publisher Put on Leave

#140

Post by wutbrodo » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 11:35 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #83

ng12 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do we need a union in a seller's market? If I'm unhappy with my job I can quit and get a new one in a week. It's not about being a knowledge worker. Screenwriters are unionized because there are many more people who want to write than there are gigs, therefore there's a high potential for abuse.

If it's a "seller's market", why do so many developers work under onerous IP contracts that grant their employers rights to what they build in their spare time? If it's a "seller's market", why do so many developers work in noisy bullpen environments where they have to blast music into their ears with headphones to focus their attention on what they're building? If it's a "seller's market", why do so many developers…

Honestly, IMHO it's because people immediately ratchet their expectations up to the highest level of of pay they can earn. If you use up all your market power on pay, you don't have much left for other conditions.

I get paid 60% of what I made at my last job because there were certain things I wanted to be different in my work environment. Too many people optimize only for pay and then complain that nothing else works the way they want it to. Cut some salary off of your top line and you'll find that the leverage that gives you in other areas is pretty huge, particularly at companies that aren't bogged down in bureaucracy. If your salary is too low to comfortably trade off against, then you're obviously not one of the examples of people with market power.

Now don't get me wrong: most of these things are positive-sum, and ideally they wouldn't trade off against pay because they might increase productivity. But that doesn't have much to do with being a seller's market.