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A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

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Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#131

Post by yborg »

ryandrake wrote: post #118
temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #8

There's a lot of math in this article about blind spots and car pillars and whatnot, but a Google Maps Street View appears to show the terrain and brush blocking the view on approach [1][2], making all of this math largely moot. That the drivers in question didn't even so much as slow down for this approach is beyond reckless, aside from the other lawbreaking that followed. The 'Give Way' sign is idiotic, put a Stop…

As a motorist, the 4-way stop is the most disruptive and maddeningly inefficient traffic control device in the municipality's tool chest. How much fuel and how many brake pads are consumed because towns just default to this kind of intersection. There are many better options (as others have listed in this thread) for almost all traffic situations. Always reaching for the 4-way stop is lazy and irritates motorists.

Because death is an acceptable trade-off for avoiding irritation - as long as it's not your death, of course.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#132

Post by imbur »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #103
ajmurmann wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A roundabout is a much better solution than a stop sign. I still believe that the ubiquous stop signs in the US are there due to the oil lobby. Bringing a car to a full stop is incredibly wasteful.

For cyclists, roundabouts aren't that much better unless we're given separate lanes. Motorists still tend to blow through roundabouts at speed if they can't see anything coming. From personal experience you can easily navigate a roundabout at 35+ mph.

Look at what they have in Berkeley. It addresses exactly this situation

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#133

Post by Svip »

I feel a lot of commenters are simply focusing on what signs can do or what sort of junction to build, rather than focus on the fact that on high speed primary country roads, bicycles shouldn't be sharing the road with the cars.

In Denmark, a lot of high speed roads (excluding motorways, of course) out in the country have separate dual-way bicycle lanes near it but not attached to it. (Example: https://i.imgur.com/dS6jqXS.jpg)

That way, the cyclists can cross the side roads on their own accord, where they are more visible and have their own junction with the side road. Additional, one can set up a traffic light that only turns red for the cars when a cyclist is crossing (i.e. activated by a button).

Furthermore, one might consider signage that warns drivers about cyclists in the junction: https://i.imgur.com/CX6SJdW.jpg

Also, a way to reduce speed of the motorists without putting in stop signs would be to add chicanes just before the junction, so they are forced to slow down.

Plus, as I've mentioned before (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15977162), I also think it is because UK drivers don't really have enough training with how to deal with bicycles and the fact that they are also participants on the road.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#134

Post by hamandcheese »

ryandrake wrote: post #118
temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #8

There's a lot of math in this article about blind spots and car pillars and whatnot, but a Google Maps Street View appears to show the terrain and brush blocking the view on approach [1][2], making all of this math largely moot. That the drivers in question didn't even so much as slow down for this approach is beyond reckless, aside from the other lawbreaking that followed. The 'Give Way' sign is idiotic, put a Stop…

As a motorist, the 4-way stop is the most disruptive and maddeningly inefficient traffic control device in the municipality's tool chest. How much fuel and how many brake pads are consumed because towns just default to this kind of intersection. There are many better options (as others have listed in this thread) for almost all traffic situations. Always reaching for the 4-way stop is lazy and irritates motorists.

There are a lot of situations where a two way stop would cause traffic to get backed up in the direction of the stop sign.

A great example is a 4 way stop at my former high school. Twice a day, everyone came and left causing a bit of a traffic jam. A two way stop would leave people in one direction waiting indefinitely, whereas a 4 way kept things chugging along rather nicely in both directions.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#135

Post by jwandborg »

Svip wrote: post #129
nraynaud wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do exist in Germany.

Really? I've driven through much of Europe, and I've never seen a 4/all-way stop junction. Edit: That came across as if I was simply trying to dispute your statement, but I am genuinely curious to see an example of this in Germany.

We have at least one in Sweden, https://goo.gl/maps/kYZpAcQnD3n, it also has the sign subtext "flervägsstopp" /"multi-road-stop".

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#136

Post by gpvos »

DaveInTucson wrote: post #124

Basic rule of the road: if you haven't made eye contact with someone, you should assume they haven't seen you and don't know you're there. I mean, they could improve the intersection by making it a full stop, but educating bicyclists not to ride out in front of somebody who will hit you if they don't slow down seems like a good step too.

In the described cases, neither of the road users has seen the other, in which case your rule does not work.

You may assume that most bicyclists do not want to get killed; of course bicyclists will slow down if they see a car on a collision course, even if they have priority; your suggestion borders on the insulting.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#137

Post by alkonaut »

nraynaud wrote: post #125
mrb wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

« make it a 4-way stop » You may be unaware, but 4-way stop signs are very uncommon outside of the US. In fact, in the UK they have always been formally prohibited by the Department for Transport in 2002. As a European driver, I discovered the existence of 4-way stop signs when I moved to the US, and I have always found them dangerous in a counter intuitive way: drivers are so used to 4-way stop intersections, that t…

They do exist in Germany.

I'm guessing they actually do exist almost everywhere, but they are rare, and only typical in very slow traffic areas such as residential block intersections (see google map in next post) where you can't motivate building a roundabout or adding lights. Anywhere else they would be replaced by either traffic lights or a roundabout.

Most importantly, you would avoid at almost any cost to cross two rural roads in a flat 4 way crossing. This is exactly where there is ample space to make a roundabout.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#138

Post by alkonaut »

wizzard wrote: post #120
ajmurmann wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A roundabout is a much better solution than a stop sign. I still believe that the ubiquous stop signs in the US are there due to the oil lobby. Bringing a car to a full stop is incredibly wasteful.

I have roundabouts in my neighborhood. They have the exact same problem. If you don't come to a full stop and/or look around your A pillar deliberately, you may never see the car or bike hidden behind it. I've also had the same problem turning onto a crossroad without coming to a complete stop at the stop sign first. I believe the only real solution is driver training.

Training is important, but the idea behind roundabouts is "we'll have plenty of collisions here, but all of them will be 30km/h or less".

Obviously you want to having bicycles or pedestrians in your roundabout so adding a bike/pedestrian path next to the roads has to be part of the plan if you want to do it right.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#139

Post by Gibbon1 »

jmts wrote: post #32
matte_black wrote: post #4

Wow, after all these years I finally learned the name of this phenomenon, constant bearing decreasing range. I recall a scene in the movie Sin City where two cars crash and the camera was moving in CBDR to the perpendicular car as it zoomed into the impact site. I thought it was a cool shot. Also I’ve almost hit pedestrians several times when they were obscured by my A pillar. Sometimes I wonder if I would have actua…

> Sometimes I wonder if I would have actually hit them if anyone would have believed I didn’t see them As a daily motorcyclist that also drives a car, I'm uncomfortably aware of how much of your vision the A-pillar obscures. Not to mention the passenger side one, the B-pillars, and seating. That said, it is as much my responsibility (or any road user, or pedestrian) not to put myself into a dangerous position as much…

My Prius has an airbag in the A pillar. What I find slightly terrifying is when you are turning you can get the same effect with a walking pedestrian. I'd frankly rather trade a thinner A pillar for a lower likelihood of clocking a pedestrian.

Re: A Type of Road Junction that Kills Cyclists

#140

Post by henrikschroder »

cmurf wrote: post #58
bo1024 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even then, they're still not treated like stop signs. Drivers blow past the sign up to the farthest possible point and only stop there, if at all. In particular they speed right over the pedestrian crossing without looking.

That's because in America you grandma can legally teach you how to drive and so you learn all her bad habits. It's a feature, not a bug. And your driving test might cover this type of intersection or it might not. The testing is like 50 out of 5000 possible questions. Again, it's a feature (of idiocy) not a bug. I personally know maybe one other person, who knows that the location of the stop sign defines a line perp…

Actually, you can't pass the line with your wheels without coming to a full stop, so you have to account for the engine overhang, you can't just zap the cars at the line with your lightsaber... :-P
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