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Life expectancy in America has declined for two years in a row

economist.com

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Re: Life expectancy in America has declined for two years in a row

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Showing me the life expectancy averaged across an entire country of 300 million doesn't motivate me to do anything. This is not the point of life expectancy statistics. It's not to motivate people. And It's not about you. Just because you're thinking it's about you and that it's not relevant to you to be put in the same bucket with others proves my point. This is an intentionally nation-scale barometer which is use…

None of those reasons the life expectancy decreased had anything to do with income inequality. Nobody died from an accident or Alzheimers because rich people got more money. Please don't use this as an excuse for whatever pet issue you want.

I didn't state what the reason for decreased life expectancy was. I only said 'it is more tied do X' (see 1) than his individual parameters.

1. http://jech.bmj.com/content/59/2/158

Re: Life expectancy in America has declined for two years in a row

#132
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The underlying problem is that college is the wrong thing. College focuses on capital-E “Education.” Book learning, “big ideas,” and “learning to think.” What we need is training—teaching people the concrete skills they need for a job. That’s true even in majors that are ostensibly directed to producing professionals. Engineering school often focuses too much on producing PhD candidates rather than practicing enginee…

> The underlying problem is that college is the wrong thing. College focuses on capital-E “Education.” Book learning, “big ideas,” and “learning to think.” What we need is training—teaching people the concrete skills they need for a job. Can you back this up? It's a big statement. Even if it's commonplace, I don't think it's well thought through. Education is for far more than jobs: People have to be citizens, commun…

>they need to be able to understand and reason critically about the world.

The problem with that, however, is that there's a large proportion of the population that quite simply isn't capable of doing that (or who are located where those skills are irrelevant). They're just usually hidden from the sight of people that are, in the exact same ways and for the exact same reasons that people of different political leanings self-segregate.

The American upper class needs to find a way to make the American lower class objectively useful again. Let-them-eat-cake "just get An Education and it'll magically make things better" is not helping the people who plain aren't smart enough to get a good job any more. An objective-focused education that trains an individual to be useful at doing a certain class of tasks (like fixing automated machines as they break), however, does.

20th century American history (as well as Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs) demonstrates that society cannot advance until _everyone_ has a sense of purpose and food on the table. Since the balance of political power in the US skews rural (lower class dominant), those in urban areas (upper class dominant) need to work harder to keep things equal.

And when everyone's happy, progress happens fast (though it tends to lag about a decade behind). Civil rights in the 60s, sexual revolution in the 70s, objective gender equality movements in the 70s, EPA in the 70s (and sufficient political goodwill to get the Montreal Protocol implemented), technological revolution in the 80s (read: automation that anyone could afford to invest in).

Progress has slowed down after that. Modern education has obviously failed to provide the educated with the critical thinking skills necessary for them to understand why, but that's a topic for another day.

Re: Life expectancy in America has declined for two years in a row

#133
post #126

It’s very frustrating to watch America decline and not being able to do anything about it. Has democracy failed? Is it time for a rekindling of the study of comparative politics? It seems the Chinese have a viable solution to the problem of a largely uneducated and passive populace.

> Has democracy failed? The US is only 5% of the World's population. There are plenty of Developed countries doing much, much better than the US. You're doing it wrong, but the rest of the world is ticking along.

Like Sweden, UK and Germany?

Re: Life expectancy in America has declined for two years in a row

#134
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The first number is a good thing. We’re overeducated in the US. Is that even possible? It's not as if we're swimming in demand for unskilled labor at a living wage. The underlying problem seems to be that college (along with housing and healthcare) are too expensive and people can't afford them.

The underlying problem is that college is the wrong thing. College focuses on capital-E “Education.” Book learning, “big ideas,” and “learning to think.” What we need is training—teaching people the concrete skills they need for a job. That’s true even in majors that are ostensibly directed to producing professionals. Engineering school often focuses too much on producing PhD candidates rather than practicing enginee…

That's true. My basic experience as an undergrad at a large research university is that the full-time professors and the TAs just simply didn't care about me. They presumably had the answers I needed when trying to learn new material, but the professors were too busy, and most of the TAs were incapable of communicating anything to me in English.

I was just there to contribute financially to the system, be herded from one lecture hall to another, and just generally stay quiet. Only when I showed interest in graduate school did I get any attention.

I had to teach myself nearly everything, and were it not for the motivation that comes from attending classes, labs and exams with my peers, I could have easily done the whole things independently and remotely.

More to your point about job training, I studied math, which I thoroughly enjoyed, but I use little of it from day to day as a software engineer, and I've forgotten most of it.

Re: Life expectancy in America has declined for two years in a row

#135
post #130
post #13

A recent episode of "The Weeds" podcast was all about this [1]. I highly recommend listening to it and the podcast in general. The general thoughts are (especially for those poo-pooing the findings): - The cause is likely a massive increase in drug overdose deaths, whose average age of death is lower than other common causes (>20% year over year increase, mainly opioid-related) [2] - The drop in life expectancy is no…

Also of note - how closely related opioids are to poverty and desperation. From reading recent studies, economy in the US is halving - on one side are people desperately fighting for their lives agaisnt an unstoppable force of wild capitalism, the other half is enjoying the wild benefits of digital globalized capitalism, and the benefits of software expanding everywhere and finance controlling the world. The entire p…

> Basically, the US has been rebuilt along the lines of the same people who decided all of this back in the 1990s as a way to construct a new american empire

This reminds me of the great collapse in Russian life expectancy for Russians after the end of communism: http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2014/09/02/dying-russians/

The country became extremely unequal and was effectively looted by its oligarchs.

> a willingness to anihilate it all in exchange for a promise to return to the Valhalla of yesteryear, when making a living was easy and the government was making sure all boats were rising with the tide, instead of leaving some behind

Quite a lot of people said they would have preferred to remain under totalitarianism in the Soviet Union than to die of hopelessness in the post-Soviet crony "capitalist" wasteland. I hear there are even people in Portugal nostalgic for Salazar?

Re: Life expectancy in America has declined for two years in a row

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do have a lot of relatively unskilled jobs that claim to require 4 year degrees, though. Is college too expensive or is it over-required, or both? Even if it was free, that's a pretty substantial 4 year opportunity cost. The other part, a drop in international students is something different, though. To conclude how damaging that is, we'd need to know how much of the cohort that dropped off would've otherwise stay…

> We do have a lot of relatively unskilled jobs that claim to require 4 year degrees, though. This comes from misalignment of specialization. We have too many English majors and not enough physicians and engineers, and the English majors can't all find skilled employment. That allows the unskilled employers to require a college degree, because the unemployed English majors will take an unskilled job over nothing, so…

Some of the best coders I’ve ever met were English majors.

I’ve worked with a bunch of MDs with undergrad degrees in things like art history.

Sure, this is all anecdata but let’s not pretend a liberal arts degree necessarily dooms one to a life of flipping burgers

Re: Life expectancy in America has declined for two years in a row

#137
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"One of the things that drives treatment costs up is more advanced technology." It's not so much the technology as it is the setting in which the technology is deployed. Compare US costs to costs for the same procedures and technology in top medical tourism destinations. Quality of care and outcomes are much better at a fraction of US costs. It's the big morass of stuff around the US health care environment that adds…

This is part of where I don't know where to find the numbers I want to find. :) Are one-off procedures amenable to medical-tourism destinations a major part of US total healthcare costs? Or is it expensive, often-for-rest-of-life, prescriptions and treatment courses for certain conditions? Or just the simple requirements of keeping an ever-larger/ever-older aging population alive through falls/heart attacks/kidney fa…

Those are some good questions. And I don't have pointers to data. You can find plenty of anecdotes about one-off procedures/events that are ruinously expensive in the US but are affordable out-of-pocket cost at medical tourism centers.

The question of on-going health care costs would normally be of interest only to expats since most medical tourists plan to go back to their home country after treatment. As an expat I have some anecdotes of my on that subject. In short, they also seem to be a fraction of the cost for better care and service. Full time elder care/nursing home care, for example. When my family researched it in the US it was very expensive and mostly quite depressing conditions. We were able to obtain 24-hour care for about US$1,000 per month in Thailand and the care was quite good. An acquaintance mentioned comparative cost of dialysis - about US$10,000 per year at a Thai private hospital versus US$90,000 in the US (assuming you paid the actual cost).

One thing that remains expensive is any specialty medicines that must come from big pharma in the west, although there are more options for sources and not the racket that people experience in the US - think of meds from Canada for example.

Re: Life expectancy in America has declined for two years in a row

#138
post #135
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also of note - how closely related opioids are to poverty and desperation. From reading recent studies, economy in the US is halving - on one side are people desperately fighting for their lives agaisnt an unstoppable force of wild capitalism, the other half is enjoying the wild benefits of digital globalized capitalism, and the benefits of software expanding everywhere and finance controlling the world. The entire p…

> Basically, the US has been rebuilt along the lines of the same people who decided all of this back in the 1990s as a way to construct a new american empire This reminds me of the great collapse in Russian life expectancy for Russians after the end of communism: http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2014/09/02/dying-russians/ The country became extremely unequal and was effectively looted by its oligarchs. > a willingness to…

Oligarchs backed by the west in many cases.

Note how Russia was a cuddly uncle all the years under Yeltsin, while the oligarchs ran rampant.

Then came Putin, the oligarchs were beaten into submission, and suddenly Russia was back as the big bad bear.

Re: Life expectancy in America has declined for two years in a row

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say less the recession and more just a particularly-hard-hitting-in-America trend away from the country's historical industrial base. The 20th century US benefited massively from being on the front lines of modern industrialization and mass production, creating a ton of jobs especially in certain regions. And in areas that haven't been able to replace those jobs as the US economy becomes based in different areas…

I'd say it's large reductions in government programs, from health to education to food and welfare programs for the poor. I don't have data, but it's hard to believe that such programs have no effect. Also, the U.S. moved on from being an industrial economy decades ago, long before most people realize. In Detroit, for example, auto industry jobs began declining in the 1950s.

"I'd say it's large reductions in government programs, from health to education to food and welfare programs for the poor. I don't have data, but it's hard to believe that such programs have no effect."

I disagree.

I think the population we are discussing has not historically been heavy users of social benefits (although more than they usually know) and it is the change in status to being a potential user of such benefits that causes their desperation.

As someone who grew up in an impoverished, semi-rural community, it is my observation that everyone had a life narrative that explained how they "weren't just poor people".

It's a big, big blow when it becomes impossible to maintain that narrative.

Re: Life expectancy in America has declined for two years in a row

#140
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Basically, the US has been rebuilt along the lines of the same people who decided all of this back in the 1990s as a way to construct a new american empire This reminds me of the great collapse in Russian life expectancy for Russians after the end of communism: http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2014/09/02/dying-russians/ The country became extremely unequal and was effectively looted by its oligarchs. > a willingness to…

Oligarchs backed by the west in many cases. Note how Russia was a cuddly uncle all the years under Yeltsin, while the oligarchs ran rampant. Then came Putin, the oligarchs were beaten into submission, and suddenly Russia was back as the big bad bear.

Why does Russia try to blame The west for this and their other problems rather than trying to take some responsibility for their own affairs? No, the Russian oligarchs plundering Russia was not a CIA plot, Clinton and Bush weren’t the masterminds of it, and there was little the west could do in preventing this from happening, because they had no control over Russia.

Likewise, Russia’s problems today are not the west’s fault, no matter how much Putin tries to claim otherwise.

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