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Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

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Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#131
post #68

Starting 2018, Basecamp is paying everyone as though they live in San Francisco and work for a software company that pays in the top 10% of that market (compared to base pay + bonus, but not options) Options can be fairly large part of the compensation in SF, often as much or more than your salary (which is already highest in the market). Depending on the maturity of the company those might be a lottery ticket or act…

The author of the blog post seems to be rather confused about stock. Many, perhaps most tech companies in the SF/SV area use stock grants (RSUs), not options. And if you ignore that, then you're not actually matching compensation for the area.

Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#132
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Disclosure: I work for Triplebyte and helped publish our salary dataset recently.) $150K is below the median base salary offer we see for senior software engineers. See https://triplebyte.com/software-engineer-salary -- with a few notes: * This is base salary only. Total compensation is significantly higher once you include factors like equity compensation, bonuses, benefits. * This does vary a lot with stage of com…

I would love to see something like "true salary" where people can enter the actual hours they work, vacation days they get and salary (+ taxation as an option). If I compare on a per hour basis and factor in vacation time quite a few good looking US salaries become a lot less attractive for say a French software developer who is working a 35h workweek. It's especially interesting if you compare "boring" development j…

I made total $220k/yr at ~40hrs w/4 weeks vacation a year w/base of 140k at a prior job. This was typical.

Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#133
"Basecamp is paying everyone as though they live in San Francisco and work for a software company that pays in the top 10% of that market (compared to base pay + bonus, but not options)."

If you're working at the major SV employers like Google, a huge chunk of your compensation comes in the form of RSUs (ie, stock). For someone with 5-10 years experience, this can be ~30-40% of your total compensation. The quote above mentions base and bonus, but it doesn't say anything about RSUs and stocks. Good for them regardless, but that distinction makes a pretty big difference.

Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#134

This is really an interesting idea. Since the developers who live in cheaper parts of the country/world are now, effectively, paid more than those who live expensive parts of the world, are they not incentivizing employees to move out of the big cities? I'm also curious about traveling expenses. I don't know if they do or not, but if they had an "all hands" meeting in Chicago, would they fly their employees in from a…

> are they not incentivizing employees to move out of the big cities? Yes, that's broadly, rapidly occuring in the US (I can't speak to any other markets). It's a trend that will likely result in Silicon Valley getting partially distributed to two dozen cities in the US. Something changed in the last five or so years quite dramatically when it comes to telecommute work. It went from a concept that never seemed to qui…

People have been suggesting this is gonna happen to Silicon Valley "any year now" for over a decade. Instead the startup world just shifted its center to SF, which is no more affordable than the valley.

Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No way on this earth, $150,000 is anywhere near normal in the Bay Area, let alone in other less expensive metros. Most people are absolutely not making that much money writing code. People have serious tunnel vision on HN.

(Disclosure: I work for Triplebyte and helped publish our salary dataset recently.) $150K is below the median base salary offer we see for senior software engineers. See https://triplebyte.com/software-engineer-salary -- with a few notes: * This is base salary only. Total compensation is significantly higher once you include factors like equity compensation, bonuses, benefits. * This does vary a lot with stage of com…

I think this is irrelevant, because the question was AVERAGE. Personally triplebyte rejected me (as somebody who considers himself in the top 5-10% [won a math award, 1500/1600 SAT, worked at B-tier companies in SF, started coding around 8]).

[https://github.com/anfurny/scalaRiddle]

Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#136
post #63
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You pay your developers, or any staff come to that, what they're worth to you. It's not that easy. What they are worth to you is your upper limit. What they are willing to work for is the lower bound. It's composed of many things, mostly supply and demand, but not an insignificant portion is living expenses. Most employers would gravitate towards the lower bound. And for a dev in India, it might be reasonable to pa…

Sure, given a dev in India and a dev in SF with the same skill set, then the one in India will be willing to work for less. But when you offer a SF salary in India, then you might get a much better dev. So, theoretically, in case of remote work and a global pool of talent, it is a less optimal use of your dollars to adjust salaries to the cost of living (all other things being equal, e.g. skill set level, culture).

Depends on competition. Suppose you pay $300k a year in SF and the guy/gal in India's next best alternative is working for a local company making $50k which pays for a very nice lifestyle there. If you pay $100k, you're still substantially above most competitors, and the employee will be very happy.

Now with more competitors, salaries will probably end up rising close to SF ones--which are likely near to the upper bound, marginal value produced by the employee.

Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#137
post #28
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it? Given a situation with two developers working remotely with exactly the same skills, experience and knowledge on the same project, but one works in India, the other one works in the Bay area. Can you give me one valid reason why the developer in India should get a penny less than the developer in the Bay area? And that the cost of living is less in India than in SF is not, in my opinion, a valid reason. You…

> You pay your developers, or any staff come to that, what they're worth to you. It's not that easy. What they are worth to you is your upper limit. What they are willing to work for is the lower bound. It's composed of many things, mostly supply and demand, but not an insignificant portion is living expenses. Most employers would gravitate towards the lower bound. And for a dev in India, it might be reasonable to pa…

As a rule of thumb, you pay people 25%-33% of what they are worth to you. That other 67%-75% covers the costs of employing them, the overhead of your business--including employees that don't make money for you directly--and some profit for the owners.

If you pay less than 25%, the employee is very likely to find a better deal somewhere else. If you pay more than 33%, you might have occasional difficulty operating your business or giving raises.

There are plenty of potential employees willing to work for less than 25%, and a few more that will demand more than 33%. You should leave them to other employers, that will have other means of monetizing their work.

Candidates are perfectly able to self-sort themselves into a pay range appropriate for them, especially those that know their own worth versus the companies that routinely try to lowball.

This is why one of my stock interview questions is "how do you measure the value to the company of work done by this position?" For me, whether the response is honest or evasive is often more telling than any details given. In my view, the value an employer should bring to the table is the ability to monetize my work to a far greater extent than I could manage on my own. I might be able to provide $2X in value and charge $X for it as a freelancer, so an employer should at least be able to magnify my work into providing $3X or $4X and then pay me more than $X for it. Ideally, the employer squeezes $5X or more of value out of my work, and then pays me $1.6X or more to do it for them.

So what I'm willing to work for is not my lower bound. That bound comes from what I could get working the same job for someone else, or for myself, and that comes from how well different companies can convert my work into cash, and how greedy they are about capturing that additional value for themselves.

I would likely be willing to work for $40/hr. That amount keeps the bills paid. But it won't ever keep me from looking elsewhere for better work.

So my expectation is that employers that comb the globe looking for bargain employees are crap at monetizing the work of their employees. And to some extent, I think that Silicon Valley salaries are way above that 33% threshold, and are dooming those employers to future cash flow problems, unless they actually are able to bring in an extra $1M per developer--which I suppose could really happen with the right unicorn magic. It's really hard to judge, unless you can look at how the company makes money from their developers' work.

Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#138
post #5

I've been using Basecamp since version 1, and in my opinion it became worse and more overpriced at every release. I've recently signed up to see if I could use it for a team, and it was barely more useful than a piece of paper. Obviously its success proves me wrong, but I don't get it.

Bad software makes $$$.

It's a trend I see over and over and over.

Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have dev teams in several locations in Europe, one in India, and one in the US. Speaking specifically of the India developers, they are fully qualified and, given equal conditions, I believe they could perform in the same manner as a western developer. From the company's perspective, the conditions are not equal, try as we might (and do) to make them so. They are working on the other side of the clock from much of…

>but to make the economics make sense for the company To increase profits for owners, actually.

Well, you're right that it does that.

We, like most for-profit companies, generally try to do things that increase profits.

Re: Basecamp doesn’t employ anyone in SF, but now we pay everyone as though all did

#140
post #59

Great to see such initiative by Basecamp. This is good for devs around the world. GitLab sits on the other extreme with their "open salaries": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10924957

The other extreme being low end salaries?
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