Live data from Hacker News

Overcoming Us vs. Them

nautil.us

131–140 of 249 posts

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#131

I think this is going to be the next big challenge in social tech: Contact: The consequences of growing up amid diversity just discussed bring us to the effects of prolonged contact on Us/Theming. In the 1950s the psychologist Gordon Allport proposed “contact theory.” Inaccurate version: bring Us-es and Thems together (say, teenagers from two hostile nations in a summer camp), animosities disappear, similarities star…

The first thing to always keep in mind is that intentionally attempting to engineer social behaviors has historically been the single most devastatingly destructive motivation. Far more destructive than war, famine, disease, or other means of human suffering and death. It gave us eugenics, concentration camps, political purges, the obesity epidemic, and all manner of other ills. It backfires consistently and almost a…

>That being said, the solution is a fairly simple one. Stress critical thinking. In all things. In personal life most especially, but also in other actions. Encourage people to recognize their inescapable biases and to resist them because those biases are irrational and provide no actual benefit.

That's the simple solution?

I have two things to say about it:

First, there are many, many traps to fall into when you develop critical thinking. The way out of those traps is to refine your understanding of critical thinking even more and be more aware of biases. Frankly, this is sustainable only for those who are strongly interested in it - which in my experience is probably less than 10% of the population. Hardly "simple".

Also, having spent time amongst top scientists in academia, and seeing how irrational they can become outside of their field of expertise, I have little faith that critical thinking alone is a solution.

Second, there is a fair amount of research that shows that rational thinking devoid of emotions is infeasible. People with brain injuries where emotions essentially go away (perfectly "logical" creatures) can barely function. Every decision had to be justified. Like why you chose to eat an orange instead of an apple.

This may be an argument from extreme, but the consensus appears to be that a full emotion free approach to problem solving is less than ideal.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am very in favor of mandatory service as a strategy to improve nations but I do want to point out that some of the most impressive ones (South Korea and Israel come to mind) are extremely homogenous.

I have never understood this idea. Why would it be beneficial to have your citizenry trained to kill?

Not all mandatory service involves the military. I believe Singapore has/had one where you are part of their civil service (firefighters, etc).

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#133
This would be easier if We and Them simply differed in arbitrary preferences. But I fear that when We and Them disagree on basic epistemology, we simply sound crazy to each other.

And this irreconcilable difference, if it exists, will eventually always come out if you talk long enough.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unity against a common enemy has historically put an end to such internal strife. The Second World War wiped away domestic conflicts in the face of an existential threat, and gave a generation of men so much valor as to put them beyond reproach. It was unthinkable to target the men of the Greatest Generation with the kind of attacks and vicious reporting we are used to today, whether they deserved it or not. Edit: I'…

>The Second World War wiped away domestic conflicts in the face of an existential threat, and gave a generation of men so much valor as to put them beyond reproach. This comment is ignorant of the reality of black military members, both during the war and after.

>This comment is ignorant of the reality of black military members, both during the war and after.

As I mentioned in another comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15935787), this is because it was not voluntary problem solving. In the military you follow orders.

Research generally shows that working together voluntarily to solve a common problem, where each side needs the others' skills, really does reduce polarization.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unity against a common enemy has historically put an end to such internal strife. The Second World War wiped away domestic conflicts in the face of an existential threat, and gave a generation of men so much valor as to put them beyond reproach. It was unthinkable to target the men of the Greatest Generation with the kind of attacks and vicious reporting we are used to today, whether they deserved it or not. Edit: I'…

>The Second World War wiped away domestic conflicts in the face of an existential threat, and gave a generation of men so much valor as to put them beyond reproach. This comment is ignorant of the reality of black military members, both during the war and after.

Or, for that matter, Japanese-American citizens...

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#136

In America today, you've got multitude of "us vs them" dynamics - anti-terrorist, liberal-vs-conservative, rich-vs-poor, black-vs-white, etc. And at lot of this comes because, as the article says, "us versus them" is a powerful psychological dynamic. Given that that current American society is hyper-competitive, it seems likely this situation will continue. If pulling "us versus them" is akin to chemical warfare - a…

> . Given that that current American society is hyper-competitive,

There is slight snag in there I think, because the level of competitiveness is also determined by culture, media, propaganda, education etc.

In other words it is not something that's just there, perceptions of competition is easily manufactured. Think of telling black people that illegal immigrants are taking their jobs. There is all of a sudden a politically motivated competition presented which can be used to make the two groups hate each other.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#137
post #23
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first isn't a self-contradiction; it just places the speaker in the first camp.

Oh, good point. The sith one must be a contradiction, then, because it was said by a Jedi, so clearly both sith and Jedi can deal in absolutes.

Also could be that Obi-wan is secretly a Sith himself.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#138

It's simple. Us vs Them happens when there is competition. Competition happens when there is demand for limited valuable resources and not all that demand can be satisfied. We bring the people of the world and the people within our nations closer together by eliminating absolute poverty. Eliminating inequality is neither necessary nor even desirable, but the floor of our economies must be such that those sitting upon…

There's still competition among the wealthy for limited resources. There will always be limited resources (for example a promotion, a love interest, dominant market share, a political position, etc).

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#139

It's simple. Us vs Them happens when there is competition. Competition happens when there is demand for limited valuable resources and not all that demand can be satisfied. We bring the people of the world and the people within our nations closer together by eliminating absolute poverty. Eliminating inequality is neither necessary nor even desirable, but the floor of our economies must be such that those sitting upon…

>>Eliminating inequality is neither necessary nor even desirable, but the floor of our economies must be such that those sitting upon it enjoy a certain minimum acceptable level of comfort.

Behavioral economic research shows this isn't how humans think, particularly Americans. They are naturally competitive regardless of their base level of comfort and "fairness" is inherently very important to them. If one would get 1 unit of free utility and another person gets 5 units of free utility, but the person who gets 1 unit has unilateral control over whether or not anyone gets anything, a startlingly high percentage of people in the 1 unit group will completely axe the deal entirely despite being better off.

Re: Overcoming Us vs. Them

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> left-leaning google/facebook/youtube/twitter using alt-right as a banner to ban conservatives What? Citation needed. I haven't heard of any conservatives getting banned from these services due to their political affiliation. > Then when programmers are on a list, or a project doesn't support the diversity license, you get banned from github, hackathons or talks. Again, what? Has this happened? I've never heard of t…

> What? Citation needed. I haven't heard of any conservatives getting banned from these services due to their political affiliation. See: Professor Gad Saad, whose YouTube videos are regularly demonetized. Sometimes they are demonetized while they are processing. Dennis Prager's "Prager University" is currently suing Google for a similar situation with their channel ( https://www.prageru.com/press-release-prager-univ…

> You are apparently not allowed to think differently, which is sort of ironic, coming from the birthplace of Apple.

I hate to be "that guy", talking about the "normies" invading his favorite community, but I feel like this is essentially what happened in tech. The shear value of the industry has mandated the involvement of more conventional groups. It's no longer a space of cold logical computer nerds, emotion and ideology has crept in.

My main point is, I don't think that the innovators, or the "different thinking" is gone at all, it's just been overwhelmed by the cookie cutter college intellectuals we churn out these days. I mean lets face it a College education isn't what it used to be...

I'm not trying to say that computer nerds are somehow smarter than other people, or that College grads today are idiots. My College GPA alone would suggest I'm the idiot. I'm more talking about the death of cold logic, doing whats effective, and living ones own life, which seemed to be the mantra of the old school libertarian "big thinkers".

And yes, I do hate myself for using the term "normies". I'm washing my keyboard with bleach as we speak.

Post reply on HN