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The world's most toxic value system (2001)

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Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#131

Post by usrusr »

Nomentatus wrote: post #15

Without a working and well-funded criminal justice system, "Don't with me or my clan EVER" may be the best you can do, alas. As mentioned in another comment, if you're living in a U.S. inner city where talking to the police is taboo, similar conditions can develop. "Irrationally" disproportionate responses to small problems ("display" in ape terms) may prevent worse problems and greater violence. It's not ideal, it's…

Optimization to a local maximum pitfall, it is very much acknowledged in the article that the systems criticised make sense to those inside.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#132

Post by 7952 »

leohutson wrote: post #26
georgewsinger wrote: post #3

> Created 19 November 2001, Last Update 30 August 2011 Looks like this was created right after 9/11. It's understandable why he wrote this. > It's considered bad form in many circles to criticize another culture's values. In addition, the social science literature contains a number of rationalizations for the "honor" mentality. One is that every value system makes sense to the people that hold it. Another is that eve…

It's illogical to make value judgements about cultures, there is no objective way to do it. What makes one culture "better" than another? Survival? Virality? Honor? Piousness? Lawfulness? Every culture values these things differently. Calling it politically correct shows your own failing to comprehend something outside of your own cultural frame of reference. Notably I could make the same point about morality as the…

Surely value judgements are not bounded by logic. And the reliance on logic in this case is a value judgement in its own right.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#133

Post by splittingTimes »

Pyrhos wrote: post #111
c3534l wrote: post #62

I'm not sure why the author lumps together so many of the attributes he does, and when he does acknowledge exceptions, rather than learn from them and understand why they exist, he simply waves his hands an says Japan wasn't honor-bound enough or not in the right way or whatever else. His examples are cherry-picked and similar examples exist in the countries he holds up as exemplars. Saudi Arabia viewed cleaning as w…

>"I'm not sure why the author lumps together so many of the attributes he does, and when he does acknowledge exceptions, rather than learn from them and understand why they exist, he simply waves his hands an says Japan wasn't honor-bound enough or not in the right way or whatever else." He makes a very clear distinction between the two - one honor system is based on (external) shame, the other is based on (internal)…

> With the difference that things he describes still happen at large in the middle east and Africa, while Europe has moved past them long time ago.

Well kinda depends what you define as "long time ago". Speaking for West Germany:

- 1954: Married woman are now allowed to work in public offices.

- 1958: Married woman are now allowed to work as teachers.

- 1958: The husband has no longer the right to single-handedly terminate the employment of his wife. Women still need the permission of their husband to start gainful employment.

- 1962 woman are allowed to have their own bank account.

- 1977: Woman are no longer forced to have a "house wife" marrige. They no longer need a permission by their husbands to start gainful employment.

===

source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frauenbewegung_in_Deutschland#...

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#134

Post by usrusr »

jjjensen90 wrote: post #8
LiweiZ wrote: post #6

Off topic, the web site is truly content-centered and looks clean and clear with no unnecessary information. Font size for each level is very good, too. For me, that's how good design should look like.

This design is probably a product of the page being written in 2001. Back then, the web was (text) content-centered because browsers couldn't do much other than text and layout. I might even be old enough to say those were "the good ol' days" :)

Those good old days were much earlier, that article is from the heyday of Macromedia Flash. The page is as bare and content centric as it is not because of age but because it is on .edu, the majority of which was already delightfully retro back in 2001.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#135

Post by baybal2 »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #68
baybal2 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read it, and think it is a so so writing. The author piles too many things together. martythemaniak gets more of what it is to it. There are no such thing as an honour based society, and the author is imagining things. Popular explanation: what seems as an "honour" things to people in the west are often just egregious displays of social status. It is hard for Americans to naturally arrive to the way of thought of t…

I don't understand what you're trying to express here. You agree that all of the things the author describes do happen, and pretty much for the same reasons the author describes, but you...still think he's wrong, somehow? Possibly because you don't like him using the word "honor," even though he went to great lengths to not do that?

While he mentions that to him, it seems that deemed honour is a proxy for social status in some cultures, in none it is. Egregious manifestations of social status, do come a mile apart from what even moderately enlightened person considers an honour in cultures he listed. His finding went only a finger poke length in the issue.

No sane Sikh or Bengali will publicly admit that men who killed their wives in anticipation of Pakistani army coming, rather than to defend them with their lives did an honorable thing. These historical episodes are publicly denounced as the most shameful in history of Sikh and Bangla communities, with only few fringe, marginal religious fanatics coming forward with opposing opinions.

Nor will any normal person from Balkans accept exceptional vengefulness as something to be proud of.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#136

Post by baybal2 »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #68
baybal2 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read it, and think it is a so so writing. The author piles too many things together. martythemaniak gets more of what it is to it. There are no such thing as an honour based society, and the author is imagining things. Popular explanation: what seems as an "honour" things to people in the west are often just egregious displays of social status. It is hard for Americans to naturally arrive to the way of thought of t…

I don't understand what you're trying to express here. You agree that all of the things the author describes do happen, and pretty much for the same reasons the author describes, but you...still think he's wrong, somehow? Possibly because you don't like him using the word "honor," even though he went to great lengths to not do that?

He picked word Thar, but even that semantic loading that he devised, reinvents the bicycle. He want to put that to "wage feud" as he puts is different from simple fight over social status, while it is, and later he effectively says that.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#137

Post by dhimes »

nradov wrote: post #50
bryananderson wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something this author gets that most people (of all political stripes) don’t: whether a culture is “better” than another is not even a well-formed question. We must ask “better at what?” We must define some criteria to measure, and speak in those terms, not in ill-defined terms like “just better”. The author speaks mostly in terms of specific consequences of different value systems. This is not the same thing as decl…

It's pretty easy to objectively measure which cultures are better. In general we can just look at long-term trends in voluntary migration rates by country / state / region (or whatever geographic area aligns with a particular culture). Sure there will be some noise in the data based on natural disasters and legal restrictions but those revealed preferences give a good first approximation.

That's like saying Facebook is good because everybody uses it.

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#138

Post by weeksie »

Nomentatus wrote: post #35

It's just not historically true that "northern European culture has been relatively free of the thar mentality." We weren't magically spared these traits. In fact few hundred years ago duels were the mainstay of the official justice system in England. These duels were, literally, trials. I wish I knew more about how we got away from all that.

I can suggest Francis Fukuyama's "Origins of Political Order" for a decent survey of that. Couple it with Steven Pinker's "Better Angels of Our Nature" for a holistic look at violence in human societies in general

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#139

Post by QAPereo »

Pyrhos wrote: post #126
jmngomes wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Saudi Arabia viewed cleaning as women's work, sure, just like nearly every country in Europe 100 years ago. Gender equality is still a big problem in Europe, actually: https://www.oecd.org/inequality.htm#gender

>Gender equality is still a big problem in Europe Men and women are equal under the law (in most or all European states) when it comes to labour. Gender inequality in Europe is largely caused by individual choices. This is best demonstrated by the fact that in poorer countries of eastern Europe, women are much more represented in STEM as it's a good way out of poverty, while richer countries (such as Scandinavian) wh…

Ah those famous “individual choices” which are perfectly spherical, and in a vacuum. /s

Re: The world's most toxic value system (2001)

#140

Post by jmngomes »

Pyrhos wrote: post #126
jmngomes wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Saudi Arabia viewed cleaning as women's work, sure, just like nearly every country in Europe 100 years ago. Gender equality is still a big problem in Europe, actually: https://www.oecd.org/inequality.htm#gender

>Gender equality is still a big problem in Europe Men and women are equal under the law (in most or all European states) when it comes to labour. Gender inequality in Europe is largely caused by individual choices. This is best demonstrated by the fact that in poorer countries of eastern Europe, women are much more represented in STEM as it's a good way out of poverty, while richer countries (such as Scandinavian) wh…

My point was that gender equality is far from a solved problem in Europe (unlike the previous post claimed in "just like nearly every country in Europe 100 years ago."). To me, what actually sounds ridiculous is to dismiss the problem by saying it "results from choices" when you have evidence (data on the website I linked) that demonstrates that - all things equal (experience, geography, etc) - women globally make less money, namely in STEM jobs, than their male counterparts.

"Men and women are equal under the law" in Europe, but the reality is far from text in law, unlike what was previously said.

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