This Is Why The American Dream Is Out Of Reach • Hacker News Board

Re: This Is Why The American Dream Is Out Of Reach

#131

Post by lefstathiou » Wed, Aug 04, 2010, 1:24 PM UTC

I am still a bit skeptical of the "american dream is fake" skeptics.

We cant hold higher education responsible for people making poor decisions. It isnt the college's fault that his lack of humility kept him unemployed. That is his own issue. I could be wrong, but I believe this is the only time in history that a typical 21 year old (presumably from any background) can come out of college and immediately enter the top 1% of wage earners (in finance and some engineering). Even looking beyond finance, look at what kids fresh out of law school and med school (even not top tier med schools) are making. Even teachers, who we typically view as underpaid, make considerably more now than they did in our parents generation if you take into account the 200 day work year and benefits.

Re: This Is Why The American Dream Is Out Of Reach

#132

Post by cynicalkane » Wed, Aug 04, 2010, 1:57 PM UTC

encoderer wrote: post #124

lionhearted wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't that like arguing that you can pick up programming knowledge on internet discussion boards cheaper than a degree program? Nah, it's more arguing that you'd be better off learning by contributing to Open Source - then you'd get lessons and contacts for free instead of paying a lot of money to get. > The reasonable component in the price of higher education is about the quality of the interpretation and dialogu…

Agreed. Hard to argue that price inflation in education hasn't reduced its value. Not its worth -- that's remained or even increased. But its value .

I don't understand the distinction you're making. Did you mean "marginal value" instead of "value"?

Re: This Is Why The American Dream Is Out Of Reach

#133

Post by hnal943 » Wed, Aug 04, 2010, 2:09 PM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #29

"I get that [having a good network gives] you an advantage, of course, but does not having them mean a career in holes?" Yes, obviously. If you aren't even well-networked enough to get a job then how the hell are you supposed to be an entrepreneur? Being well-networked is probably the single best predictor of entrepreneurial success, so criticizing the grandfather's advice while telling him to start a company makes n…

Are you arguing that it's easier to become "well-networked" by sitting at home? How do you think you would impress more people? By working or by being too arrogant to work?

Re: This Is Why The American Dream Is Out Of Reach

#134

Post by hnal943 » Wed, Aug 04, 2010, 2:13 PM UTC

tsmith wrote: post #91

""Scott has got to find somebody who knows someone," the grandfather said, "someone who can get him to the head of the line." Is this Russia?" Hah. Best quote from the article. Between the baby boom, rising life expectancies, and the 30-60% drop in boomers' retirement funds, people of Scott's age are facing a completely different scenario than the two generations before his. No shame in slacking by while society sort…

I think there is shame in slacking. It's not like Scott is forgoing a job to work on something he views as more important. He's doing nothing but consuming resources because of his own selfishness and arrogance.

Re: This Is Why The American Dream Is Out Of Reach

#135

Post by randallsquared » Wed, Aug 04, 2010, 3:00 PM UTC

matwood wrote: post #129

randallsquared wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like you have to think to serve fries, stock shelves or wait tables. Working crap jobs is the best motivator I've ever had to do better for myself. It sounds like you've never done it. You have to think to do all of that stuff -- not enough to keep you from being bored out of your skull, but enough that you can't actively think about something else and still do it well enough to keep your job. Stocking shelv…

Never done it? I've had a job of some sort since I was 15. I worked overnights while in HS stocking shelves in addition to landscaping during the days in the summer. I put myself through college waiting tables so when I graduated I had Come up with all the excuses you want, but at the end of the day you're still mooching off your friends when you're perfectly capable of doing some job while you look for more work. IM…

at the end of the day you're still mooching off your friends when you're perfectly capable of doing some job while you look for more work. IMHO, that's not acting like an adult.

Well, these days, I'm the moochee, in your terms. But that's fine, because helping each other is what friends do. I don't think it's childish behavior to accept proffered help when you need it; succeeding is hard enough without insisting that every little gain must be solely due to your own hard work.

Re: This Is Why The American Dream Is Out Of Reach

#136

Post by encoderer » Wed, Aug 04, 2010, 3:28 PM UTC

cynicalkane wrote: post #132

encoderer wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Hard to argue that price inflation in education hasn't reduced its value. Not its worth -- that's remained or even increased. But its value .

I don't understand the distinction you're making. Did you mean "marginal value" instead of "value"?

No, Value.

Re: This Is Why The American Dream Is Out Of Reach

#137

Post by stewiecat » Wed, Aug 04, 2010, 4:33 PM UTC

djb_hackernews wrote: post #59

cynicalkane wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm rather bothered by all the people knocking liberal arts degrees, in this and other threads. I did go to a school with a reputation for having a hard liberal arts core education, and it turned out to be a great decision. (In retrospect, I now wish I had gone to a different school, but the one I chose wasn't bad at all.) It's hard to explain why it's good to be able to think about these things, but it's hard to exp…

Just a reminder but Hard Science degrees also make you take some general education requirements, for instance my Computer Science degree came with courses such as: * 4 Semesters of Latin * Chinese Mythology * History * Linguistics * Entomology * Sociology * Macro Economics

Same here, we had to take eight 3-credit humanities courses to graduate. I ended up taking history, literature, and some sociology. We even had to take physical education for 4 or 6 (I forget) semesters at 1 credit a pop.

Re: This Is Why The American Dream Is Out Of Reach

#138

Post by cynicalkane » Wed, Aug 04, 2010, 5:12 PM UTC

encoderer wrote: post #136

cynicalkane wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand the distinction you're making. Did you mean "marginal value" instead of "value"?

No, Value.

What? In normal English, value and worth are nearly the same thing. In economic English, value is worth, usually spoken of relative to other worthwhile things, but not relative to price. So I don't understand you at all.

Re: This Is Why The American Dream Is Out Of Reach

#139

Post by redrobot5050 » Wed, Aug 04, 2010, 5:18 PM UTC

yalurker wrote: post #13

Sigh, another blogger trotting out the tired, false cliche that college is useless. From the article: "Were you smarter at 21 post college than your Dad was at 21? And whatever the difference, was it worth the $50k-$200k he paid to get you it?" Yes. Yes I was smarter. And I didn't pay 200k because I went to a state school. I graduated a wholly different person with a completely different world-view and a ton of appli…

Counterpoint: The article's point is that these 24 year olds with "respectable degrees" but no opportunities should create their own opportunities.

Sure, it may not come with the creature comforts of a management job at a large corporation, but you're also your own boss. I know a lot of people who can't or won't put a price on only answering themselves.

To recap: Yes, a degree makes you more employable, but there's more to prospering than being a good employee. Especially as the corporate structure is figuring out that there are too many cogs in the machine.

Re: This Is Why The American Dream Is Out Of Reach

#140

Post by redrobot5050 » Wed, Aug 04, 2010, 5:25 PM UTC

yalurker wrote: post #13

Sigh, another blogger trotting out the tired, false cliche that college is useless. From the article: "Were you smarter at 21 post college than your Dad was at 21? And whatever the difference, was it worth the $50k-$200k he paid to get you it?" Yes. Yes I was smarter. And I didn't pay 200k because I went to a state school. I graduated a wholly different person with a completely different world-view and a ton of appli…

I wanted to chime in something here: I went to school at a state school "down the street" from CMU in Computer Engineering. It was "what my family could afford" since my father was between jobs.

Myself and a CMU grad might have the same degree (B.S. in ECE)but our starting salaries are vastly different. I started out around 40K (w/no bennies) whereas CMU students would probably start closer to 55-60K + bennies.

Was this because CMU was also #1 in the world in ECE at the time? Yes, of course. But the point I'm getting at is private school's higher prices often imply that you will receive a better starting offer. Assuming our job markets are equally flexible, it could be 5 years before someone like myself "catches up".

Kids like the one from the NYTimes article have been raised to work smarter, not harder. Why spend 5 years paying your dues when name recognition or knowing someone will get you to same place without brow sweat?

It's not necessarily a college's fault. They're catering to wealthy entitled people and trying to take as much as they dishonestly can. Likewise, entitled children don't really understand a world that isn't catering to them.