No, of that I'm innocent • Hacker News Board

Re: No, of that I'm innocent

#131

Post by countryslicker » Wed, Oct 25, 2017, 9:42 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #120

TarpitCarnivore wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's go even more simple: Just be a decent human being What you do and don't do should not be tied entirely to work relation situations.

Decent human beings make unwanted sexual advances all the fucking time . We can't read each other's minds after all. This is why we go to the trouble of defining a "sexual harassment" standard in the workplace, which holds coworkers to a higher standard of care than what is expected outside of the workplace. Obviously we are not supposed to live our lives interacting with every other human purely professionally .

Wow. Mind reading is not required. You've watched too many movies that go from strangers to married with children in 90 minutes. How about spending weeks, months, and even years building a relationship? Talking->dating->holding hands->... Spend more than 5 minutes on each stage. I know it seems old-fashioned, but it can really reduce the degree of offense when you misjudge the stage of a relationship.

Re: No, of that I'm innocent

#132

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 25, 2017, 9:44 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #120

TarpitCarnivore wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's go even more simple: Just be a decent human being What you do and don't do should not be tied entirely to work relation situations.

Decent human beings make unwanted sexual advances all the fucking time . We can't read each other's minds after all. This is why we go to the trouble of defining a "sexual harassment" standard in the workplace, which holds coworkers to a higher standard of care than what is expected outside of the workplace. Obviously we are not supposed to live our lives interacting with every other human purely professionally .

[deleted]

Re: No, of that I'm innocent

#133

Post by pwinnski » Wed, Oct 25, 2017, 10:02 PM UTC

Everything about this reeks of nastiness. I'm sure it hurts to have your past wrongs put under a microscope publicly. I remember the days after my divorce, and the pain and shame were excruciating. The only thing that would have been worse would have been if I'd denied the obvious truths, minimized my own misbehaviors, and relied on self-righteousness to assuage pangs of guilt.

Sadly, Scoble has not (yet?) come to that realization. I hope he stops talking long enough to realize his own pain, as excruciating as it is, isn't the story here. It's the pain he caused to others, and is continuing to cause with his self-righteousness.

This isn't he-said/she-said. It's he-said/they-said, where many witness corroborate the other side of stories he tries to reframe. When even his own false reframing of stories makes him sound like a troubled terrible actor, that ought to have been a sign to him to not hit publish.

Re: No, of that I'm innocent

#134

Post by cisanti » Wed, Oct 25, 2017, 10:49 PM UTC

hartator wrote: post #16

> Every act of infidelity, every time I have watched an adult video online, How watching porn equates to cheat on your wife? Very weird moral compass.

He's a man down right now and probably very emotional. Just a guess, but should have listened to his lawyer.

Also, U.S seem to have strange views on what is sexual assault. I don't know who is quilt or who is lying, but reading some of them are things I would avoid women over the ocean all together.

Re: No, of that I'm innocent

#135

Post by noonesays » Wed, Oct 25, 2017, 11:20 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #124

zaroth wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I might be misunderstanding you. People absolutely should not be expected to live their whole lives like they are at the office. What defines outside social stuff that rides along as a work environment ? How far outside your social sphere are you supposed to be meeting or getting introduced to actual people who are interesting to you as a peer and potential romantic partner? So it sounds like it's back to wha…

I don't think anyone here is talking about "flirting." Although I think it's also fair to say that the closer you get to being "in the office" the more caution is probably called for.

> I don't think anyone here is talking about "flirting."

Literally three comments up from your own comment:

> If you are the keynote speaker of a conference, DO NOT flirt with other attendees or other coworkers, regardless of the line of report.

Re: No, of that I'm innocent

#136

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 25, 2017, 11:28 PM UTC

cisanti wrote: post #134

hartator wrote: post #16

> Every act of infidelity, every time I have watched an adult video online, How watching porn equates to cheat on your wife? Very weird moral compass.

He's a man down right now and probably very emotional. Just a guess, but should have listened to his lawyer. Also, U.S seem to have strange views on what is sexual assault. I don't know who is quilt or who is lying, but reading some of them are things I would avoid women over the ocean all together.

[deleted]

Re: No, of that I'm innocent

#137

Post by zaroth » Wed, Oct 25, 2017, 11:30 PM UTC

countryslicker wrote: post #131

zaroth wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Decent human beings make unwanted sexual advances all the fucking time . We can't read each other's minds after all. This is why we go to the trouble of defining a "sexual harassment" standard in the workplace, which holds coworkers to a higher standard of care than what is expected outside of the workplace. Obviously we are not supposed to live our lives interacting with every other human purely professionally .

Wow. Mind reading is not required. You've watched too many movies that go from strangers to married with children in 90 minutes. How about spending weeks, months, and even years building a relationship? Talking->dating->holding hands->... Spend more than 5 minutes on each stage. I know it seems old-fashioned, but it can really reduce the degree of offense when you misjudge the stage of a relationship.

Very condescending reply and ad hominem isn't necessary, but I think is reflective of the strength of the argument.

Dating is messy, complicated business. People get hurt. There is no magic ritual or length of time that will prevent that.

But I think the ivory tower condescension that if only men would follow this or that prescriptive approach is extremely damaging and even perpetuates the problem.

Re: No, of that I'm innocent

#138

Post by ghaff » Wed, Oct 25, 2017, 11:31 PM UTC

noonesays wrote: post #135

ghaff wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone here is talking about "flirting." Although I think it's also fair to say that the closer you get to being "in the office" the more caution is probably called for.

> I don't think anyone here is talking about "flirting." Literally three comments up from your own comment: > If you are the keynote speaker of a conference, DO NOT flirt with other attendees or other coworkers, regardless of the line of report.

Fair enough. I did not see that and would actually disagree with it for appropriately non aggressive values of flirting. (If you’re a high profile keynote speaker specifically though, caution is increasingly called for.)

Re: No, of that I'm innocent

#139

Post by emodendroket » Wed, Oct 25, 2017, 11:37 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #121

TarpitCarnivore wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't create a hostile work environment if you're not actually working with someone or exerting direct influence over their career? Quinn's story was not at a 'work environment' so does it have any less impact? Why are you letting him adjust the narrative to define what he feels is harassment?

Quinn's story sounds like assault and has nothing to do with sexual harassment. To me that just muddies the waters.

Surely he doesn't intend to say "I'm not guilty of sexual harassment but rather sexual assault."

Re: No, of that I'm innocent

#140

Post by zaroth » Wed, Oct 25, 2017, 11:46 PM UTC

countryslicker wrote: post #128

jsmthrowaway wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even simpler than that, really: treat a conference and the outside social stuff that rides along as a work environment regardless of your status or role. You’re not at a knitting convention. You’re meeting professional peers. I had to fuck up to learn this, and I think it’s extremely important. Q: Would I do $thing if this were at my office? A: No. Done.

Does your office serve alcohol? Does your rule of thumb extend to what you eat and drink? What kind of clothes you wear? Whether you stay or leave? I think it would be great if it did. But then you would have to significantly restructure conferences to conform. Many of the official events of a conference are blatant violations of workplace behavior.

Since drinking an unspecified amount of alcohol can render a woman (but not a man) incapable of consenting while possibly also giving the outward appearance of consenting, no absolutely don't serve alcohol at the workplace when women are present.

Now of course this is an absurd statement, but are their elements of truth in it? Quinn's account is Scoble and another woman were "making out" and that both were drunk. There was no question at all of Scoble's capacity to consent but Quinn felt she or her friend was able to determine the woman (who she doesn't know and apparently didn't talk to) was not able to consent, and claim that Scoble was minutes from raping her.

So, in short, a dumpster fire.