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Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

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Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#131

Post by lovich »

spaceribs wrote: post #85
lovich wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this more like teaching the crows commerce? If we controlled their food 100% and did not give it to them unless they did the work, I agree that would be slavery. This is just paying for a service. I feel like there would be bigger ethical problems over the proper amount to "pay" them than whether or not the act of paying them for a service is ethical

I think a systemic misconception in this thread is that we're teaching crows anything other than how to get food from a device we designed. They are not rational actors in this situation. They are never on the same playing field as we are. We would be taking advantage of their limited intelligence to do our bidding.

Crows have demonstrated enough intelligence in experiments, that I am not willing to write them off as irrational actors.

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#132

Post by FullMtlAlcoholc »

adrusi wrote: post #129
spaceribs wrote: post #16

Back in college I did a paper on if this was ethical or not for my bioethics class, I warn people to really take a step back from the positive possibilities with something like this and understand that these are wild animals being trained to become slaves to benefit our human failings and appetites. I would definitely draw a line between this kind of domestication and the domestication of animals by our ancestors for…

You're implicitly claiming that crows have second order desires (what you "want to want", as opposed to first order desires, "what you want"). If crows don't have second order desires then this doesn't matter to them, it's just another way of getting food. They're not bothered by whatever it is that's the problem with cigarette butt food, they're incapable of being bothered by that: they want to food so they want to…

>You're implicitly claiming that crows have second order desires (what you "want to want", as opposed to first order desires, "what you want").

I would think it's prudent to assume so unless incontrovertible evidence disproves this notion as opposed to assuming they dont until evidence presents itself.

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#133

Post by anotherevan »

undersuit wrote: post #88
jackgolding wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read through to a linked article you'll find there is indeed long term health effects to the birds https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22730341-600-birds-lo...

I never said there weren't. I specifically worded my comment to suggest that the benefits might outweigh the harm.

For instance, if the crows are picking up enough, then there will be less birds using them for nesting material, which is a more prolonged exposure.

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#135

Post by uoaei »

jaggederest wrote: post #97
spaceribs wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, pretty much, although if we keep going in this direction we'll end up talking about drugs, slot machines, human slavery, and what really is willpower and choice. Bioethics is incredibly interesting and underrated for dinner conversation.

How do you feel about the ethics of keeping animals as pets? Despite my ethical concerns, I have a cat as a roommate, but I generally think that pet ownership is unethical for precisely the reasons you discussed in the thread above.

My two cents: if you treat it as a proper responsibility and as essentially a furry child, you have no moral or ethical qualms. If you can satisfy its needs and help it lead a pleasant life free, that's enough.

On a related note, I had a professor in college who was a Buddhist and considered his living situation as involving a "cat who lived with me" and not "his cat" per se. I think that's a much healthier way to look at it. It preserves the cat's agency and rejects possession of another living being.

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#136

Post by mikestew »

jaggederest wrote: post #97
spaceribs wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, pretty much, although if we keep going in this direction we'll end up talking about drugs, slot machines, human slavery, and what really is willpower and choice. Bioethics is incredibly interesting and underrated for dinner conversation.

How do you feel about the ethics of keeping animals as pets? Despite my ethical concerns, I have a cat as a roommate, but I generally think that pet ownership is unethical for precisely the reasons you discussed in the thread above.

I think there is certainly a strong case against those that breed pets. But until the shelters are empty, I’ll always have a dog or two around.

And I’m not “keeping” them, they’re roommates. Lazy, unemployed, helpless roommates that can’t even feed themselves properly. They’re welcome to leave any time they like. But, though they’re dogs, they’re not idiots.

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#137

Post by uoaei »

andymcsherry wrote: post #49
ceedan wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah... the callousness of smokers and their littering is unacceptable. I understand that throwing your cigarette in the trash can be a fire hazard sometimes, but put the cigarette out and throw it out. Some smokers just seem to love flicking that still-burning cigarette into the road like it's no big deal.

Smoker in San Francisco here. I've thought about this quite a bit and here's my dilemma. 1. It is illegal to smoke indoors 2. San Francisco has made it illegal to have ash trays outdoors 3. Cigarettes set trash on fire so it's not acceptable to put them in the bin 4. Cigarettes have a tax on every pack earmarked to fund street clean-up I'd prefer to not throw my cigarettes on the ground, but I've been left with no re…

On every trash can ever, there's nowhere to put out a cigarette and you have no time to spend 5 extra seconds making sure it's out?

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#138

Post by dTal »

vortico wrote: post #76
dTal wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slavery is not 'negative reinforcement training'. Indeed, it is possible to be a slave and be rewarded for good work. Slavery is where you have no choice but to work. If the food reward is substantial enough to be worth a crow's while, then it confers a competitive advantage and crows that refrain from this behaviour will face pressure on their food sources from the offspring of the well-fed crows; essentially you've…

Isn't it normal for every animal for them to be required to "do work or starve"? By your definition, does nature enslave every animal except humans who for a select number don't have to work for survival? Kudos on your last point though. The overreaction on this thread needs to be brought back to that reality.

Perhaps. I think the line is drawn when you don't have a choice as to the nature of the work. Which raises the thought-provoking question of how little choice is too little - freedom to choose which section of field you pick cotton from is obviously at one end of the scale. What's at the other? What about "you can work at any job you want, as long as you never leave the country or speak ill of Glorious Leader?" How many choices do you need to be offered before it doesn't "count" anymore?

Agriculture itself must have felt like slavery to hunter-gatherers - work the fields, or get killed by those who do.

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#139

Post by Cthulhu_ »

cujic9 wrote: post #2

Bonus points when the crows learn they can speed up the process by dive bombing a smoker, causing them to run away in terror, dropping their cigarette in the process.

More bonus points if they group up and throw the device over, spilling all the food out.

Or hack the thing and figure out what else activates it.

Re: Training crows to pick up cigarette butts for food

#140

Post by danielam »

KGIII wrote: post #121
danielam wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your moral sentiments are misplaced. While it would be nice if people didn't litter, training animals to do something beneficial for us is not immoral as such, and especially not if no cruelty is involved. It certainly isn't slavery as slavery presumes rights, something animals do not have. To have an argument, you'd have to show that any negative effects of training surpass the positive. Even if it led to a…

I think we have pretty clearly established that some animals have right. We may have established that most animals have rights, I'm not sure. Try setting fire to a horse and see the legal results. Try making a species go extinct, even pests. So, there are some rights - and arguments for even stronger rights.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that it is clearly established. It most certainly is not. It sounds to me like you are confusing rights with moral obligations in respect to animals. It is a mistake to think that an absence of rights is an absence of moral duties, not to, but in respect to animals.
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