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Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

nytimes.com

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Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#131

Post by bitcoindoubt »

thebulgar wrote: post #111
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your story clearly indicates this has nothing to do with it being a wolf. It happened to have a body that was capable of killing, yes. But the owner picked it up and slammed it whenever it misbehaved, and the owner actively encouraged it to kill things. If your parents did that, you would do the same thing. You see this kind of prejudice against pitbulls too. They're some of the sweetest dogs.

I don't know why you're getting downvoted. Pitbulls, golden retrievers, wolves--all technically the same species. The prejudice against certain breeds of "dog," or against "wolves," is no different from racism.

Hackernews is like if you filled Palo Alto up three feet with raw sewage.

Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#132

Post by PhasmaFelis »

thebulgar wrote: post #111
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your story clearly indicates this has nothing to do with it being a wolf. It happened to have a body that was capable of killing, yes. But the owner picked it up and slammed it whenever it misbehaved, and the owner actively encouraged it to kill things. If your parents did that, you would do the same thing. You see this kind of prejudice against pitbulls too. They're some of the sweetest dogs.

I don't know why you're getting downvoted. Pitbulls, golden retrievers, wolves--all technically the same species. The prejudice against certain breeds of "dog," or against "wolves," is no different from racism.

> The prejudice against certain breeds of "dog," or against "wolves," is no different from racism.

Jesus Christ.

Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#133

Post by goatlover »

thebulgar wrote: post #111
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your story clearly indicates this has nothing to do with it being a wolf. It happened to have a body that was capable of killing, yes. But the owner picked it up and slammed it whenever it misbehaved, and the owner actively encouraged it to kill things. If your parents did that, you would do the same thing. You see this kind of prejudice against pitbulls too. They're some of the sweetest dogs.

I don't know why you're getting downvoted. Pitbulls, golden retrievers, wolves--all technically the same species. The prejudice against certain breeds of "dog," or against "wolves," is no different from racism.

The same species if you ignore thousands of years of human breeding. And racism, WTF?

Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#134

Post by kbenson »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #124
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it isn't evidence that wolves will maul children just because they're ambitious I agree, the research doesn’t say this. It says wolves offer a lower tolerance for making mistakes, a higher cost when things go wrong and fewer aids ( e.g. picking up on intonation, instinctive subservience) to help you along. You can do it. (Our ancestors did.) You’ll just have an animal vying for your seat in the pack, because it hon…

Ah, I didn't mean to give the impression that owning a wolf would be a good idea. It's certainly perilous, just like living with a tiger. I just think they can love you in their own way. If someone wants to explore the question, and they're doing so safely and only risking themselves, then it's probably no one else's business. On the other hand, it's hard to imagine how that could be done safely, so I concede. Thanks…

> I just think they can love you in their own way.

Yes. In the same way your sociopath childhood friend might love you. They will prioritize you over others (probably because you're known and they can anticipate your behavior), and use you or allow you to use them when they think it is beneficial. Don't expect sacrifice or compassionate understanding though, and don't expect your feelings to have much weight beyond how they affect your attitude towards them (or how you can affect the attitudes of others).

Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#135

Post by [deleted] »

jhbadger wrote: post #107
boondaburrah wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK cats aren't domesticated. It's more that we have a deal with them. They moved in on their own when they realised humans provide shelter if you hunt their pests.

They aren't as domesticated as dogs, that's for certain, but you can't just take a bobcat or other small wild cat kitten and expect it to be a good pet that won't try to attack you when it gets older. Even the more exotic breeds of housecat like the Savannah (crossbred with wild servals) have behavior issues. Housecats have been domesticated to the degree that they continue to act kittenish in adulthood.

[deleted]

Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#136

Post by sillysaurus3 »

kbenson wrote: post #134
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, I didn't mean to give the impression that owning a wolf would be a good idea. It's certainly perilous, just like living with a tiger. I just think they can love you in their own way. If someone wants to explore the question, and they're doing so safely and only risking themselves, then it's probably no one else's business. On the other hand, it's hard to imagine how that could be done safely, so I concede. Thanks…

> I just think they can love you in their own way. Yes. In the same way your sociopath childhood friend might love you. They will prioritize you over others (probably because you're known and they can anticipate your behavior), and use you or allow you to use them when they think it is beneficial. Don't expect sacrifice or compassionate understanding though, and don't expect your feelings to have much weight beyond h…

Are you basing any of this off of experience?

I had two indoor outdoor cats, neither of which were neutered. I couldn't bring myself to do that to them. To my surprise, I found that none of the stereotypes were true, at least with one of them. He was the sweetest, most caring thing. He didn't care to assert dominance, he didn't try to fight, he didn't spray. He didn't do any of the things that people said cats will do unless neutered.

After an experience like that, you start to think differently about the world, and about people's unqualified opinions.

The fact is, you can't know. You are (and feel free to correct me) speaking based on no experience. I think there's at least one wolf in the world that would surprise you and defy your stereotypes.

But yes, you're probably correct in the general case.

Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#137

Post by anthroDominator »

mariodiana wrote: post #102
refurb wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can do some google searches about wolves as pets and it's fascinating. Domesticated dogs adjust quite readily to a pack pecking order. Wolves will with a lot of training, but they never stop trying for the top spot. It's a constant battle. Also, if their pack leader looks sick or injured, the wolf will take that a signal to make a move for top spot. I've heard of owners twisting an ankle and hobbling around and t…

"That's not to say wolves can't be pets […]" Is it just me, because everything you've just said seems to suggest that wolves can't be pets.

Depends on your perspective with regard to the rearing of pets.

It’s probably just not very appropriate according to your particular personality, and perhaps slightly offensive to typical sensibilities.

But there’s something admirable about a companion that requires a degree of vigilance, and expects domination in exchange for honest respect. In a sense that sort of presence does you the favor of keeping you sharp for your own sake, according to the rules of the harsh world that produced its kind.

It’s a somewhat clear contrast worth tuning into, to consider what uncivilized nature requires from a predator, as compared to what genteel society rewards.

Could it be a pet in some suburban cul de sac? Nah, but a tract of hemmed-in, woodland terrain might work, such that ordinary folk are protected from it’s advanced husbandry requirements, both by remoteness, and possibly some engineered physical barriers.

Would it still be a pet, if you offer it free movement within a zone larger than it’s natural range? Yes, but only by fostering conditioned dependence, which is what being a pet owner is really about anyway. Pets are not peers, but sometimes they believe themselves to be.

Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#138

Post by nyolfen »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #106
macspoofing wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Your story clearly indicates this has nothing to do with it being a wolf How do you figure that? The entire article basically talked about how you can never domesticate a wolf.

Do you believe that if you can't domesticate an animal, that it's inherently and randomly violent? Every single one, in all cases? People live with tigers. You'd never say that they were domesticated. The majority of the time, this works fine. you only hear about cases where they turn on their owner, which is rare. I've spent a long time thinking about this question, and it seems like the ultimate truth is that we hu…

> Do you believe that if you can't domesticate an animal, that it's inherently and randomly violent? Every single one, in all cases?

domestication is determined by a collection of genetic features that essentially stunt an animal's physical development as a juvenile, and it's not environmentally-instilled (or at least, not for the most part). you can treat a chimp or a bear like a pet from the day it's born, but one day it's almost invariably going to cause serious damage. people treat this as a proxy battle for racism but it's not even slightly controversial science.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4096361/

i would also recommend reading about the effort to domesticate silver foxes. it was doable in about fifty years via culling of aggressive foxes, allowing the friendlier (ie, more juvenile) foxes to survive and breed.

Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#139

Post by oh_sigh »

refurb wrote: post #65
nthompson wrote: post #57

When wolves got reintroduced to Idaho, a few hillbillies went up into the primitive area and stole some pups, and they circulated around as pets. My buddy had one, and it scared the shit out of me. It was 130lbs of killing machine. They could tell it to kill anything, and it would do it. Their neighbor's dog had been biting them, so it was the first to go. Then they'd set it on foxes, which is could run down with eas…

You can do some google searches about wolves as pets and it's fascinating. Domesticated dogs adjust quite readily to a pack pecking order. Wolves will with a lot of training, but they never stop trying for the top spot. It's a constant battle. Also, if their pack leader looks sick or injured, the wolf will take that a signal to make a move for top spot. I've heard of owners twisting an ankle and hobbling around and t…

> Domesticated dogs adjust quite readily to a pack pecking order. Wolves will with a lot of training, but they never stop trying for the top spot. It's a constant battle.

This makes sense, and it makes me wonder if an even more 'subservient' human creature should be, or is being (unintentionally) created. Individually, the wolf is greater than the dog. However, a pack of dogs could easily take down a wolf. Wolves are to dogs as the Heroes[0] are to us. Collectivization is not a strategy for 100 years but for 10,000 years. Are we today just going through the painful process of a genetic local anesthesia towards domestication?

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Heroic_Age

Re: Wolf Puppies Are Adorable, Then Comes the Call of the Wild

#140

Post by refurb »

mariodiana wrote: post #102
refurb wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can do some google searches about wolves as pets and it's fascinating. Domesticated dogs adjust quite readily to a pack pecking order. Wolves will with a lot of training, but they never stop trying for the top spot. It's a constant battle. Also, if their pack leader looks sick or injured, the wolf will take that a signal to make a move for top spot. I've heard of owners twisting an ankle and hobbling around and t…

"That's not to say wolves can't be pets […]" Is it just me, because everything you've just said seems to suggest that wolves can't be pets.

I guess it depends on how you define "pet". You can keep wolves as companion animals, but it requires a very different skill set compared to domesticated dogs.
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